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12 minutes ago, old man said:

Really Henry, making society fit them? A new convention maybe?

Sounds like a grand future?

 

No new convention at all, rock and roll, hippies, 90`s rave culture, these and more change cultural norms and those who are horrified by the change have forgotten what it was like to be young. we learn from the past but we have to move forward in time otherwise we would still be pushing kids up chimneys.

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Very commendable the help and resources that are put towards al these young struggling persons with all there disorders and backgrounds 

however 

try getting help for a victim 

clever studious hard working kid that could achieve great things 

these kids are the real victims there classes are disrupted there bullied and more often than not the few moments of help they should get in class they don’t receive 

these are the young people that earn the right to change their society surely 

otherwise the problem young people will be the only ones who have a say

remember that there are two different sides to this

just a few thoughts

of  

 

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2 minutes ago, henry d said:

No new convention at all, rock and roll, hippies, 90`s rave culture, these and more change cultural norms and those who are horrified by the change have forgotten what it was like to be young. we learn from the past but we have to move forward in time otherwise we would still be pushing kids up chimneys.

I agree......... Stabbing each other because you took a shortcut home, the ability to sit around all day whilst drawing the payment you are 'entitled to' because you are 18 and spent 2 years in school spitting at the teachers and destroying the place because you wernt given a cuddle when you felt sad (but it also means you cant moan about pervy pete the teacher either) and you wernt taken in by Alan Sugar and placed as CEO because you had no exams is the fault of the state.

 

We should change the 'accepted norms and conventions' of the last 1000 years or so to account for this

 

 

 

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Just now, ph5172 said:

I agree......... Stabbing each other because you took a shortcut home, the ability to sit around all day whilst drawing the payment you are 'entitled to' because you are 18 and spent 2 years in school spitting at the teachers and destroying the place because you wernt given a cuddle when you felt sad (but it also means you cant moan about pervy pete the teacher either) and you wernt taken in by Alan Sugar and placed as CEO because you had no exams is the fault of the state.

 

We should change the 'accepted norms and conventions' of the last 1000 years or so to account for this

 

 

 

Dont forget hormones, its a get out of jail free card , because hormonal teenagers is a new thing, isnt it ?

And siblings crying in the the night definitely gives you the right to carry, and use mums kitchen knife on the kid on the next street who 'disrespects ' you

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3 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Very commendable the help and resources that are put towards al these young struggling persons with all there disorders and backgrounds 

however 

try getting help for a victim 

clever studious hard working kid that could achieve great things 

these kids are the real victims there classes are disrupted there bullied and more often than not the few moments of help they should get in class they don’t receive 

these are the young people that earn the right to change their society surely 

otherwise the problem young people will be the only ones who have a say

remember that there are two different sides to this

just a few thoughts

of  

 

Support is there for all YP at school and teachers use exclusion to protect those who can/will concentrate in class.

3 hours ago, ph5172 said:

1 - I agree......... Stabbing each other because you took a shortcut home, the ability to sit around all day whilst drawing the payment you are 'entitled to' because you are 18 and spent 2 years in school spitting at the teachers and destroying the place because you wernt given a cuddle when you felt sad (but it also means you cant moan about pervy pete the teacher either) and you wernt taken in by Alan Sugar and placed as CEO because you had no exams is the fault of the state.

2 - We should change the 'accepted norms and conventions' of the last 1000 years or so to account for this

1 - Broad generalisation.

2 - What like crusades, the aristocracy speaking French, the black death and famine (Well you started it)

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1 minute ago, henry d said:

Support is there for all YP at school and teachers use exclusion to protect those who can/will concentrate in class.

1 - Broad generalisation.

2 - What like crusades, the aristocracy speaking French, the black death and famine (Well you started it)

I don’t think you understand

its a broad generalisation that young people can change - see it works both ways. 

Some people don’t want to change. It’s not a broad generalisation it’s fact. 

I see people day in day out that have no intention of changing. They ship off somewhere new and funnily enough end up doing the same again and everyone starts the whole process and this goes on and on. 

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16 minutes ago, ph5172 said:

I don’t think you understand Believe me I do

its a broad generalisation that young people can change - see it works both ways. No it`s a fact, that more can change if given the right opportunities at the right time, as I have said we have around 80% getting into sustained positive destinations (Work, education, further ed, apprenticeships...)

Some people don’t want to change. It’s not a broad generalisation it’s fact. Wouldn`t argue that for a minute

I see people day in day out that have no intention of changing. They ship off somewhere new and funnily enough end up doing the same again and everyone starts the whole process and this goes on and on. Given the right intervention they might have though

 

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Sorry Henry it’s not 

6 year old girl crying because no matter how good she is she can’t get a gold star at school 

i asked the teacher why ? 

Answer 

well we give those to the badly behaved  children if they behave for a week 

so what do the good kids get ? 

Answer 

well nothing they don’t need a reward there good anyway 

With policies like that in place no wonder there in need of your services 

 

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39 minutes ago, henry d said:

Absolutely, a six year old upset at not getting what they want, what kind of world do we live in?

That 6 year old will probably go on to be a crack head, zombie knife wielding, moped thief, thanks for not 'intervening' on that one Henry .

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1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

That 6 year old will probably go on to be a crack head, zombie knife wielding, moped thief, thanks for not 'intervening' on that one Henry .

A very interesting reply 

the 6 year old at the time couldn’t understand why some could get a gold star and she couldn’t

however

we changed her school to one that rewarded achievement and good behaviour 

she went on in leaps and bounds constantly striving for the top marks and doing the absolute best she could 

became head girl at the school then on to university 

gaining two degrees one in law and the other in Chinese history learning on route how to read write and speak Chinese 

she now qualified works for a major law firm and does a fair bit for the United Nations on the human rights side 

she is working to change not just our society 

but to make the world a better place 

although if she had stayed at the original school you may well have been right 

all the best 

of 

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2 minutes ago, Old farrier said:

she is working to change not just our society 

but to make the world a better place 

although if she had stayed at the original school you may well have been right 

That is absolutely excellent !

Please dont think I was being literal , it was more a light hearted dig at Henrys flippant retort.

I understand exactly where you are coming from, this society has gone from rewarding achievement, to rewarding failure.
Helping the criminal, and leaving the victim to pick up their broken life.
We have flipped round the culprit and the victim, where the culprit has become the victim because they had a poor or abusive childhood, and the victim was 'in the wrong place, at the wrong time'
An army of lawyers and social workers will support the criminal, very often getting them off scot free, or with minimal sentences for horrific crimes, often with bare faced lies about their 'terrible' experiences.
The victim who has often suffered a real terrible experience from the grinning criminal, is left to wonder if he/she will ever feel safe again, if theyre are lucky they may get some free therapy, while they wait for the perp to get out and possibly come after them.

In a world where you reap what you sow, those who sow nothing get a bountiful harvest , while those who slog, pay for it.
We are creating a future where your 6 year old will be a tiny point of light in a sea of darkness.

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2 hours ago, Old farrier said:

A very interesting reply 

the 6 year old at the time couldn’t understand why some could get a gold star and she couldn’t

however

we changed her school to one that rewarded achievement and good behaviour 

she went on in leaps and bounds constantly striving for the top marks and doing the absolute best she could 

became head girl at the school then on to university 

gaining two degrees one in law and the other in Chinese history learning on route how to read write and speak Chinese 

she now qualified works for a major law firm and does a fair bit for the United Nations on the human rights side 

she is working to change not just our society 

but to make the world a better place 

although if she had stayed at the original school you may well have been right 

all the best 

of 

Very good, so that was 30 years ago or so? I think you will find times have moved on somewhat as well as teaching methods.

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46 minutes ago, henry d said:

Very good, so that was 30 years ago or so? I think you will find times have moved on somewhat as well as teaching methods.

24 

times have changed and teaching methods I’m sure 

are they successful ? 

Will they change society for the better? 

Only time will tell 

maybe pick a 6 year old now and say what they will actually achieve by the time there 30 

her self motivation is what got her there 

 

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How about turning the clock back 24 years and changing the context?

Substance abusers for parents, run down council estate, under performing school, neighbours rowing regularly next door at all hours, younger siblings that they have to help look after, lack of proper nutrition and general health poor due to alcohol fetal syndrome/drug withdrawal as a newborn. Will they have the same life opportunities as their cohort? Will they be as self motivated with all that burden on their shoulders? For some the chance to even get a basic education is a struggle.

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2 minutes ago, henry d said:

How about turning the clock back 24 years and changing the context?

Substance abusers for parents, run down council estate, under performing school, neighbours rowing regularly next door at all hours, younger siblings that they have to help look after, lack of proper nutrition and general health poor due to alcohol fetal syndrome/drug withdrawal as a newborn. Will they have the same life opportunities as their cohort? Will they be as self motivated with all that burden on their shoulders? For some the chance to even get a basic education is a struggle.

Sorry but you don’t seem to see that it’s the product of 24 years ago that is the problem now 

some are good some are bad 

you can blame whatever you like and defend it to the hilt 

sad to say it’s down to the individual it’s not hard to work out hot from cold right from wrong 

There’s plenty of members on here that have turned it around and come good from a bad start 

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12 hours ago, Old farrier said:

Sorry but you don’t seem to see that it’s the product of 24 years ago that is the problem now It certainly is for those who had so many obstacles to overcome, the schools support systems have changed along with how they deal with behaviour in class, which isn`t surprising since its over almost a quater of a century.

some are good some are bad Indeed, very argued that it was not the case

you can blame whatever you like and defend it to the hilt 

sad to say it’s down to the individual it’s not hard to work out hot from cold right from wrong And this is where it breaks down (see below)

There’s plenty of members on here that have turned it around and come good from a bad start Good for them for bucking the trend

Children unlike YP and adults, cannot conceptualise and at the age of 2-7 tend towards egocentricity and struggle to see things from anothers perspective, right and wrong are not easy concepts to understand and are usually formed by the adult input around them and this is where their solid constructs, in this particular case right and wrong, are formed for them. With good parenting this isn`t a problem, but bad parenting will be a retrograde step for their development. All the other factors I mentioned before will have an adverse affect on the child. Unfortunately you have used a single case to inform your thoughts on how a child experiences the world and how they, in your mind, can pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and defeat the socio-economic factors that have a huge impact on someones early development.

If you want you can look up a few theories about children`s cognitive development such as; Piaget, Vygotsky and Kobayashi for help in understanding the micro factors and Hegel, Weber and Durkheim for macro factors affecting them.

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34 minutes ago, henry d said:

If you want you can look up a few theories about children`s cognitive development such as; Piaget, Vygotsky and Kobayashi for help in understanding the micro factors and Hegel, Weber and Durkheim for macro factors affecting them.

Sounds like you dont have theories Henry, you have rock solid formulas , backed by scientific facts, its a good job we have you to reverse the violent trends seen in todays 'YP'

I could have sworn someone earlier on in the thread said 'You need to do a bit of research, it crosses all races/ethnicity, but the common thread is poverty.'
But now your saying its down to the fact that young children lack empathy and have no concept of right and wrong, unless their
parents do ?

42 minutes ago, henry d said:

pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and defeat the socio-economic factors that have a huge impact on someones early development.

You see, being born into an environment where the 'socio-economic factors' are not favourable should technically rubber stamp your life of crime and degradation, but it doesnt does it ?
Criminals come from all walks of life, and just because you were born on a poor street, doesnt mean you cannot pull yourself out of it.
Like wise being born into wealth does not guarantee a good character, by a long stretch.

You rubbish other peoples arguments, but fail to examine your own , claiming  'your way' works, but if that were the case, there would be a roll out across the country , and crime would eventually become a thing of the past, oh I forgot , it needs more money ?
Different social and cultural problems exist, requiring different methods of approach, one size does most definitely not fit all.
And, as Ive said before, if you cannot recognise the problem, or even acknowledge it exists, how on earth are you going to tackle it ?

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On 16/05/2019 at 21:58, Scully said:

The weapon of choice has no bearing on the thread,  but if you watched the programme you would see that the difference between those using knives and those using guns, is irrelevant as there is no difference. 

They all have one thing in common, and that is the circumstances they find themselves in and the environment they inhabit. The weapon is immaterial. 

I watched it, however it was a docu-drama so it was padded out to fill the time slot. I think a better documentary is one that appeared again last night; The mystery of murder gives an insight into the other factors that can influence someones potential to be more violent than another and covers physiological as well as environmental factors.

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33 minutes ago, henry d said:

It was brought up in another thread when someone said (iirc) that most/all knife crime was done by Somali`s.

I believe it was Africans in general that were mentioned ?
The above report states 8 % of the 100 people stabbed so far were of Somali heritage, other African heritage countries probably make up a large proportion of the rest, the figures are not published.
All I can say is, unless there is a massive racial issue , the kids of African heritage are pretty much stabbing each other.

But we cant really say that as it might be deemed racist.
Might have to blame slavery or colonialism instead.

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