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Dealer selling without a warranty - legal or not.


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So, scanning a well known "trader" sight and looking at the selection of Rapid 7's (  Air Rifle) I noticed a particular seller advertising a nice example, but at the end of the description was the statement "due to the age of this gun there is no warranty included" - now, as far as I know this is totally illegal unless the gun is sold as spares or a non firing item? Anybody know any different? To my mind I would avoid a dealer that attempts to ignore consumer rights.

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I believe the consumer protection rules apply between all trade to public sales? If you are a trader you have to comply with consumer protection laws in sales to the public..... private to private, trade to trade and public to trade sales are not covered.....there may be some sort of legal disclaimer for goods that are sold trade to private buyer as non working/for spare parts/or repair?

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1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

I believe the consumer protection rules apply between all trade to public sales? If you are a trader you have to comply with consumer protection laws in sales to the public..... private to private, trade to trade and public to trade sales are not covered.....there may be some sort of legal disclaimer for goods that are sold trade to private buyer as non working/for spare parts/or repair?

This .

He will stipulate on the receipt, trade sale , or spares.

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23 minutes ago, Rake aboot said:

Trade sale is a meaningless statement when selling to the public.

 

If he is selling it as working then it is covered by statutory guarantees. 

Not if you get the punter to sign them away via a trade sale, or by purchasing *spares.

Works ok in the motor trade I can assure you.

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4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Not if you get the punter to sign them away via a trade sale, or by purchasing *spares.

Works ok in the motor trade I can assure you.

I reckon a trader allowing or encouraging/coercing a private buyer into signing something, which attempts to remove that private buyers statutory rights, could, in the event of a complaint, end up as a serious legal problem for the trader?

Selling as 'spares' would, I imagine, get rid of any 'fit for purpose' complaint?

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I'm not sure but I would think that with the correct wording the item would not need to be "fit for purpose" but rather "as described".

"Currently working but no warranty given. Inspection and acceptance of condition and terms is essential"

Or simply "sold as a collection of parts''.

Maybe somethjng like that would cover it?

Edd

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24 minutes ago, Rake aboot said:

As far as I was aware a trader could not do a "trade " sale to a member of the public.

It's all about the price. 

If you sell something at below it's retail or usual market price, you can say its been sold at trade price. 

If it was sold at retail, with a trade disclaimer, that probably wouldnt stand up to trading standards scrutiny. 

The idea of selling goods of 'merchantable' quality, that should function as they are supposed to, for a 'reasonable' length of time, applies if said goods are sold at normal retail prices. 

If they are not, the vendor has a defence of, trade sale, or sold as seen. 

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A trade sale can only be made by a dealer to a customer who is a "trader" of such goods and thus the Law presumes that the buyer is knowledgeable enough to make an informed decision on an items condition. The gun is described as "good condition" in the Ad.

Edited by bruno22rf
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Rightoh. Now I'm not really convinced with this I'm afraid, I'm absolutely not being a ****, but if you sell a car for using on the road it has to be fit to use.

If it needs repaired it's spares or repair.

Selling it cheap isn't a defence against selling an item that is not fit for purpose.

 

Like I say, not being a ****, but I've fought a couple of people on this point and have won my case, not in court, but they have backed down because they were wrong.

 

 

This is relevant for any item sold. An air rifle has to shoot.

Edited by Rake aboot
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7 hours ago, Rewulf said:

It's all about the price. 

If you sell something at below it's retail or usual market price, you can say its been sold at trade price. 

If it was sold at retail, with a trade disclaimer, that probably wouldnt stand up to trading standards scrutiny. 

The idea of selling goods of 'merchantable' quality, that should function as they are supposed to, for a 'reasonable' length of time, applies if said goods are sold at normal retail prices. 

If they are not, the vendor has a defence of, trade sale, or sold as seen. 

Not pretending to know the definitive answer here but price has little to do with it. 

To make a binding contract one of the elements needed is money, called consideration in law and "it need not be adequate". This makes perfect sense because who is to say what constitutes a retail or trade price anyway because so much depends on so many variables. The asking price for even new guns varies within the trade never mind used items which are almost never fully identical. 

In the car trade you have to give a "warranty" even with old bangers called shotters 😂  (use your imagination), in practice when selling a 140k 15 year old £400 Focus where the aircon and one of the windows don't even work the customer is told there are no come backs - sold as seen (and driven).

This particular case needn't be a big issue, the kind of person wanting to buy a Rapid would tend to be fairly clued up and should be able to spot a wrong 'un, just ask to chrono and test the gun prior to paying for it, the chances are the worst thing it needs is a service with new seals. 

 

 

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8 hours ago, Rake aboot said:

This is relevant for any item sold. An air rifle has to shoot.

And it might well do, very well, but for how long? 

You might get years out of it, you might get weeks, for the trader to not want to give a warranty with it tells you several things. 

He may not be confident of its condition/service time. 

He may not believe it to be worthy of a standard market value. 

Or, he knows its a knacker. 

3 minutes ago, Hamster said:

This particular case needn't be a big issue, the kind of person wanting to buy a Rapid would tend to be fairly clued up and should be able to spot a wrong 'un, just ask to chrono and test the gun prior to paying for it, the chances are the worst thing it needs is a service with new seals

Ahh, nail on the head! 

' The worst thing it could need is' But who is going to pay for the seals and fitting? 

If the trader sells the gun, and has £50 profit on a trade deal, then buyer comes back and says 'this gun you've sold me needs... It could be £50 or even a £100 worth of work needs doing before customer is happy? 

If the trader had sold the gun at retail, with £1-200 profit, and a warranty, he's still in profit to support the repairs? 

Think about it, if the trader cannot sell ANY items without warranty, then every time he buys or takes in p/x something less than 100% he's onto a potential loser. 

A trader HAS to sell goods of merchantable quality, unless the customer knows and understands that they are not, OR they understand the price reflects they are not 100%, thus they are trade price. 

This is agreed upon at point of sale. 

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But everything you buy regardless of what it is is covered by the consumer protection act.

If it was not working it would have to be sold as such, if it is working the dealer has to stand behind is and ensure it does what it is supposed to do.

 

Anyway , I'm beginning to sound argumentative and I'n not an expert so I'll leave it there. Hope he gets the gun and it's a goodun.

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How many threads have we seen on here over the years where people complain dealers only offer paltry prices for part exchanges or buying in for stock? 

Reading this thread seems like the dealer will have to make at least £150~£200 on a used rifle in order to stand for possible warranty repairs/maintenance.

Seems to me the dealer can't win on here while so many people want their cake and eat it. A bargain is usually a bargain for a reason, and I hope any of those standing up for their letter of the law rights can't find used rifles in a shop where the dealer has decided not to be a mug.

 

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28 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I'll remember that next time I buy something from a car boot sale, or off here.... 

Off course I meant from a retailer, but you knew that :)

 

And dealers and traders have nothing to worry about if they are honest. If something is being sold as potentially not working or in bad order then sell it as that.

If it's a good piece of kit then stand behind it . Simple.

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36 minutes ago, Rake aboot said:

Off course I meant from a retailer, but you knew that :)

Ok, if I have a stall on a car boot or market stall, and I sit there with my wares every weekend, am I not a trader? 

Draw the line. 

38 minutes ago, Rake aboot said:

If something is being sold as potentially not working or in bad order then sell it as that.

You've just said you can't do that! 

Sell it as that without warranty as trade or spares, job done. 

The gun in question, the seller is obviously not confident enough to offer warranty, you said he can't do that! 

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4 hours ago, Dave-G said:

How many threads have we seen on here over the years where people complain dealers only offer paltry prices for part exchanges or buying in for stock? 

Reading this thread seems like the dealer will have to make at least £150~£200 on a used rifle in order to stand for possible warranty repairs/maintenance.

Seems to me the dealer can't win on here while so many people want their cake and eat it. A bargain is usually a bargain for a reason, and I hope any of those standing up for their letter of the law rights can't find used rifles in a shop where the dealer has decided not to be a mug.

 

Consumer protection laws were bought in to protect the public from unscrupulous traders, not to protect the trader from unscrupulous private sellers! Or deals between one trader and another. 

A trader is at an advantage over a private seller/buyer because he/she is deemed in law to have specialist knowledge of his/her trade, over and above that of a private buyer/seller. If he/she hasn't got that knowledge, then it's hard to see how they could make an honest living? Except by selling substandard goods at inflated prices and/or offering the private customer a rip off low price for the goods he/she is being offered in part exchange and/or to buy, whilst charging a rip off high price for what he/she offering for sale!......either way it's sharp practice and in consequence, perhaps they shouldn't be in trade? 

As far as I know, car boot sales are deemed private to private sales, so are not covered by consumer protection laws?

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16 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

As far as I know, car boot sales are deemed private to private sales, so are not covered by consumer protection laws

So if a trader takes some of his stock to a car boot , he's covered...?

I can only give you my experiences from the motor trade, but theoretically a retail trader is responsible for putting right any and all issues that may arise when he sells a car.

You may think that theoretically there is a time limit to this warranty, or indeed limitations to its coverage,  there isn't.

As much as the vendor will stipulate certain things aren't covered besides wearable items like brakes,tyres etc, it really depends on how many miles the buyer has done.

It also comes down to what is considered reasonable, and we move into grey areas.

If the trader says at the time of sale, it will need some tyres soon , or you need to check the oil every month, as it burns a bit, would you consider it reasonable to come back 2 months later and demand he fits new tyres and a new engine ?

Of course consumer laws are to protect the public, but if people still want to buy cheap 2nd hand items, then a little leeway needs to be given, if that means buying *as seen, then you have the option to walk away and spend your money elsewhere, or buy new, IF you have the means.

But believe me , buying new can be a rocky road too...

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6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

So if a trader takes some of his stock to a car boot , he's covered...?

I can only give you my experiences from the motor trade, but theoretically a retail trader is responsible for putting right any and all issues that may arise when he sells a car.

You may think that theoretically there is a time limit to this warranty, or indeed limitations to its coverage,  there isn't.

As much as the vendor will stipulate certain things aren't covered besides wearable items like brakes,tyres etc, it really depends on how many miles the buyer has done.

It also comes down to what is considered reasonable, and we move into grey areas.

If the trader says at the time of sale, it will need some tyres soon , or you need to check the oil every month, as it burns a bit, would you consider it reasonable to come back 2 months later and demand he fits new tyres and a new engine ?

Of course consumer laws are to protect the public, but if people still want to buy cheap 2nd hand items, then a little leeway needs to be given, if that means buying *as seen, then you have the option to walk away and spend your money elsewhere, or buy new, IF you have the means.

But believe me , buying new can be a rocky road too...

I do believe you! But as you are clearly aware, being a trader brings with it responsibilities that a trader can't ignore! 

I am aware of the "reasonable test" and the question of how, what and how long defines what is "reasonable"?.........a court of law would probably be best placed to judge that!

As to car boots, if one could prove the "car booter" who sold you duff goods was doing so in the course of business applicable to his/her trade, I imagine one would have access to legal redress!....for goods not connected to his/her trade, I assume it would be a private to private sale, and the booter would have no legal comeback?

But as you and others have pointed out, consumer law is undoubtedly very specialised and quite complicated!

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