Rules for the many. Not the few.

[JJsDad]

The Chief Constable of Kent, amongst others; has implemented a policy where all applications for renewal or initial issue of a SG or FAC certificate must be supported by a Doctors letter stating that the applicant does not suffer from a range of mental health problems and is not prone to drug or alcohol abuse.

In the light of a shortly to be published book, The Rt Hon Michael Gove MP has had to admit to cocaine abuse in the past. According to todays paper, he has not kicked this unsavoury habit and his little private parties for the great & good of this world still feature little treats to shove up their noses !

If he lived in Kent, he would be barred from owning a firearm; but can still run for the job as Prime Minister of this country. Is this a crazy world we live in, or what ?

 

[Lloyd90]

More importantly, are BASC or any other shooting organisation legally challenging Kent policing authority over this made up rule that is not in the legislation? 

[GingerCat]

1 hour ago, Lloyd90 said:

More importantly, are BASC or any other shooting organisation legally challenging Kent policing authority over this made up rule that is not in the legislation? 

Don't hold your breath. 

[JJsDad]

47 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

are BASC or any other shooting organisation legally challenging Kent policing authority

Spoke to BASC on this subject. They are trying to get all stake holders (GMC, Association of Chief Constables, Home Office, Police Firearms reps, NGO, BASC et al) around a table to discuss, with the view to resolving the impasse where some GPs refuse to sign such letters and to have a level playing field over fee`s for this service. It appears this is like trying to cram smoke into a bottle. While they are trying; there appeared no chance of any immediate timetable for this to happen

I dont think BASC or any other sporting organisation can challenge the Police Forces who have implemented this. My firearms department were at pains to point out that the Home Office guidance is exactly that. A guide only, its not law. If the Chief Constable feels he wants to implement checks over and above what is laid down in the guidelines, he can. BASC can write to a Chief Constable and complain about heavy handed treatment of licence holders, but I suspect any such letter gets filed in the bin !

[panoma1]

2 hours ago, JJsDad said:

Spoke to BASC on this subject. They are trying to get all stake holders (GMC, Association of Chief Constables, Home Office, Police Firearms reps, NGO, BASC et al) around a table to discuss, with the view to resolving the impasse where some GPs refuse to sign such letters and to have a level playing field over fee`s for this service. It appears this is like trying to cram smoke into a bottle. While they are trying; there appeared no chance of any immediate timetable for this to happen

I dont think BASC or any other sporting organisation can challenge the Police Forces who have implemented this. My firearms department were at pains to point out that the Home Office guidance is exactly that. A guide only, its not law. If the Chief Constable feels he wants to implement checks over and above what is laid down in the guidelines, he can. BASC can write to a Chief Constable and complain about heavy handed treatment of licence holders, but I suspect any such letter gets filed in the bin !

So it has been accepted that the police can make up their own rules and demand that a GP's letter must be provided by an applicant, with the threat that no certificate will be granted/renewed without one? And it has been conceded that we shooter will have to pay for it?......if that ain't plod demanding money with menaces, I don't know what is?

All that is left is for the stakeholders, including our representative shooting organisations to agree how much!

Where is the win....or even a draw?.....we've comprehensively lost.......and it feels like we've  been sold down the river....again!

[Lloyd90]

24 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

So it has been accepted that the police can make up their own rules and demand that a GP's letter must be provided by an applicant, with the threat that no certificate will be granted/renewed without one? And it has been conceded that we shooter will have to pay for it?......if that ain't plod demanding money with menaces, I don't know what is?

All that is left is for the stakeholders, including our representative shooting organisations to agree how much!

Where is the win....or even a draw?.....we've comprehensively lost.......and it feels like we've  been sold down the river....again!

 

Whilst they declare how many million they have in “reserve”. 

 

If Chris Packham can start a judicial review of the general licence, you can’t tell me BASC have no options at all to challenge Police forces. 

If they truly can’t then they’re useless. What’s the point in being a member? 

If we only get insurance we can get it cheaper elsewhere.  

[TIGHTCHOKE]

40 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

Whilst they declare how many million they have in “reserve”. 

 

If Chris Packham can start a judicial review of the general licence, you can’t tell me BASC have no options at all to challenge Police forces. 

If they truly can’t then they’re useless. What’s the point in being a member? 

If we only get insurance we can get it cheaper elsewhere.  

I wonder when they will stand up and fight?

[old man]

5 hours ago, JJsDad said:

The Chief Constable of Kent, amongst others; has implemented a policy where all applications for renewal or initial issue of a SG or FAC certificate must be supported by a Doctors letter stating that the applicant does not suffer from a range of mental health problems and is not prone to drug or alcohol abuse.

In the light of a shortly to be published book, The Rt Hon Michael Gove MP has had to admit to cocaine abuse in the past. According to todays paper, he has not kicked this unsavoury habit and his little private parties for the great & good of this world still feature little treats to shove up their noses !

If he lived in Kent, he would be barred from owning a firearm; but can still run for the job as Prime Minister of this country. Is this a crazy world we live in, or what ?

 

Mm, that's heavy stuff requiring much consideration, does he have any tickets to loose I wonder?

I have the thought that if the Home office don't make Chief Constables abide by their guidance just what is the point of having them? ? ?

[Konnie]

Used to have a saying where I last worked.

 

We are all treated equally just some are treated more equally than others  

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

I wonder when they will stand up and fight?

When they can no longer afford their big salaries. 

They'll shout how we need to come back and re-join so they can afford it.

[ShootingEgg]

11 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

When they can no longer afford their big salaries. 

They'll shout how we need to come back and re-join so they can afford it.

The regional guys are on pennies for w u at they do mate, I was asked to apply for a role, but pay was well below what I'm currently on. I couldn't afford to work for them. 

They may get company truck but tax will screw them. 

[Lloyd90]

7 minutes ago, ShootingEgg said:

The regional guys are on pennies for w u at they do mate, I was asked to apply for a role, but pay was well below what I'm currently on. I couldn't afford to work for them. 

They may get company truck but tax will screw them. 

Yes but the regional guys aren’t the ones who’d decide to launch and have to fund a legal challenge 🤷‍♂️

[panoma1]

It ain't ******* wishy washy home office guidance the shooting public needs, its favourable primary legislation.....plod can't ignore that so easily! So forget the expensive court action, we probably can't win.....all our representative organisations should unite, fund a campaign and lobby friendly MP's in government to introduce clear and concise legislation on gun licensing!.....then we will all know where we stand!

[vmaxphil]

So the chief constable is pushing the responsibility onto the doctors, I'm surprised that the GMC haven't complained 

[JJsDad]

2 minutes ago, vmaxphil said:

the chief constable is pushing the responsibility onto the doctors,

Yes, but there is no legal obligation for the doctor to respond to any form of enquiry from the Police. Some forces have been applying the policy, that where the GP did not respond within a set period (say 10 - 14 days) they were left to assume there was no medical problem and would then process the application. Kent, amongst other forces have now changed that policy to make a supporting letter mandatory. If the applicants GP has a policy of not responding, neither the Police or the applicant can do a thing about it. However, the applicant is now trapped between a rock & a hard place.

I speak from pers experience.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

So what we (the SGC Holders) need is a representative body that will use some of their (Your) money to challenge things.

[JJsDad]

3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

will use some of their (Your) money to challenge things.

I am no legal expert, so I am not sure if there is anything in this debacle that lends itself to be legally challenged in court ?

I have spoken to my Firearms Licencing Dept, who reeled off the stock answer, that the Home Office Guidance is not law.  Within the current legislation the Chief Constable has the right to assure himself that the applicant is not a danger to himself or the public by having a firearm. If he wishes to go above and beyond the guidance provided, it appears he is free to do so. This policy (requirement for a GPs supporting letter) is currently being applied by: Police Scotland, Kent, Cheshire, Merseyside, Lincolnshire, Nottinghamshire. You can expect this list to grow as Chief Constables decide to make certificate holders lives more difficult ! 

I have seen documentation that both BASC and NGO are pushing behind the scenes to get all the stake holders around a table and sort this mess out. However, with all the various parties involved, this is apparently like trying to cram smoke into a bottle. You cannot make the Home Office set up a meeting with all interested parties if they dont feel the need to do so.

[Prospero]

You would think that the people who can afford a brace of Purdeys would get together and mount a challenge, they have the money, and we need someone to sort this out.

[wymberley]

39 minutes ago, Prospero said:

You would think that the people who can afford a brace of Purdeys would get together and mount a challenge, they have the money, and we need someone to sort this out.

To refer back to the Topic title, it'll probably be found that the few who can afford the pair of Purdeys don't have a problem. And although many of these folk are also members, the many could join an association which could use the income from the membership fees to do the very thing suggested. After all, having seen how easy it is for a group of three which managed to raise some dosh to frighten a spineless bunch fearing for their pay ( it's not their jobs that they're worried about) into immediate submission, then any larger group with the bottle to have a go would arguably be equally successful

[greylag]

It is up to us as well as the organisations to lobby our MP,s and the home office to make sure the home office guidelines are adhered too,and not for various chief constables to write their own laws.It is just another way for some forces to limit the the number of certificates they issue and for some people to just give up their applications.

[Rewulf]

My experience of SGC  renewal so far. 

Got the renewal reminder beginning of march ( SGC runs out June 22) warning me that if it isn't in with 8 weeks to spare left, I Will need to be finding storage. 

Doctors letter yadda yadda... 

Got it all together, had a few issues with GPs who flatly refused to do the new style letter, my catchment area has 4 surgeries, first 2 said no we don't do them, asked licencing what would happen if all my catchment are GPs refused, 'you won't be able to renew' was the helpful reply. Anyway 3rd one was OK, so all paperwork in with 10 weeks to spare. 

Fast forward to 3 weeks ago, I emailed them asking if everything was OK? No answer. 

Last Friday, letter comes from the FLM, telling me my renewal can't be done on time, no reason why.. BUT, he's extending it by 2 months, keep the letter with your ticket ect. 

I suspect the new style doctors thing, is not just causing us problems. 

[greylag]

Apparently the various organisations are attempting to have meetings with the association of chief constables to get this mess  sorted out.As has previously been said how can you make a legal challenge against a guide line which is not law.It seems that every police area has a different way of doing things depending upon the direction of the chief constable.

[JJsDad]

On 11/06/2019 at 09:44, greylag said:

not for various chief constables to write their own laws.

 

 

As a result of a PM from a helpful member of Pigeon Watch, I spoke by phone yesterday to a Kent RFD who does not want his details revealing on an open forum; but like many other licence holders is getting a bit sick of Chief Constables making their own laws up as they go along. In some cases this action may well have a hidden agenda in the form of reducing the number of licence holders in a county area.

Having complained to The Gun Trade Organisation, BASC etc, he is totally frustrated by the seeming lack of will and progress in getting the various stake-holders around a table to sort out what is slowly becoming a total mess and is causing serious concerns to some licence holders who`s GPs refuse outright to comply with Police requests for supporting letters.

In an attempt to bring matters to a head in Kent, he has raised a formal complaint against the Chief Constable for breeching Home Office guidelines. If this complaint is cleared by the Crime Commisioner for further investigation it apparently requires an officer of equal or senior rank to investigate the complaint. While this is in its early stages; he has received an acknowledgement and is awaiting notification of the next steps.

I wish him well with this positive action and hope the complaint results in an investigation into the Chief Constables self-appointed policy. The Police are there to enforce existing legislation, it is not their right or role to make the rules up to suit their own agenda`s.

I intend speaking again with this chap in a few weeks time to see how his complaint is progressing.

 

Edited June 18, 2019 by JJsDad

[Newbie to this]

29 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

 

 

As a result of a PM from a helpful member of Pigeon Watch, I spoke by phone yesterday to a Kent RFD who does not want his details revealing on an open forum; but like many other licence holders is getting a bit sick of Chief Constables making their own laws up as they go along. In some cases this action may well have a hidden agenda in the form of reducing the number of licence holders in a county area.

Having complained to The Gun Trade Organisation, BASC etc, he is totally frustrated by the seeming lack of will and progress in getting the various stake-holders around a table to sort out what is slowly becoming a total mess and is causing serious concerns to some licence holders who`s GPs refuse outright to comply with Police requests for supporting letters.

In an attempt to bring matters to a head in Kent, he has raised a formal complaint against the Chief Constable for breeching Home Office guidelines. If this complaint is cleared by the Crime Commisioner for further investigation it apparently requires an officer of equal or senior rank to investigate the complaint. While this is in its early stages; he has received an acknowledgement and is awaiting notification of the next steps.

I wish him well with this positive action and hope the complaint results in an investigation into the Chief Constables self-appointed policy. The Police are there to enforce existing legislation, it is not their right or role to make the rules up to suit their own agenda`s.

I intend speaking again with this chap in a few weeks time to see how his complaint is progressing.

 

hopefully something positive will come of this, I wish him all the luck in the world. Good to hear somebody taking some initiative.

[greylag]

It is up to us all to contact our chief constables if you are not happy about their interpretation of home office guidelines .If you are happy to let them get away with it so be it.It is about time we as well as the various organisations become more proactive instead of sitting quiet and let everyone ride rough shod over us.