Muntjac

[Farmboy91]

While Googling where I could pick up some AAA's last night I came across an old thread on here, and then another on a few other forums about using them for muntjac? 

Plenty of comments saying it was/wasn't legal. I have had a read of the deer act 1991 but it's not exactly worded for the layman.

It's using them by the book? 

[Dekers]

The last time I looked AAA is legal on deer, and not just Muntjac, there are conditions of course, actually almost anything is legal if you go down the Humane dispatch route!

Anyway, if something has changed and Ive missed it can someone please post a link to where it says its not legal.

 

Edited June 10, 2019 by Dekers

[Farmboy91]

1 hour ago, Dekers said:

The last time I looked AAA is legal on deer, and not just Muntjac, there are conditions of course, actually almost anything is legal if you go down the Humane dispatch route!

Anyway, if something has changed and Ive missed it can someone please post a link to where it says its not legal.

 

Thanks dekers. 

Do you happen to know what the conditions are? I can't make head nor tail of the deer act lol. 

I'm not looking to try and go stalking with it but there are plenty of muntjac around here and they do make a mess of the apple trees. 

[Dekers]

17 minutes ago, Farmboy91 said:

Thanks dekers. 

Do you happen to know what the conditions are? I can't make head nor tail of the deer act lol. 

I'm not looking to try and go stalking with it but there are plenty of muntjac around here and they do make a mess of the apple trees. 

From memory its Section 7 of the 1991 Act, its a long time since I looked!

PS. the Humane dispatch situation is altogether different!

 

[Farmboy91]

30 minutes ago, Dekers said:

From memory its Section 7 of the 1991 Act, its a long time since I looked!

PS. the Humane dispatch situation is altogether different!

 

Thanks, I'll have a propper read of it somewhere quiet later on. 

[kier]

As  I understood it AAA shot could be used on deer if they were damaging ones crop but have to be shot on the same land as the damage was done or have written  permission from the owner,  mountjac  can be shot humanely any time

but when I asked the FAO if it was legal he said no and then asked me if I would like a 243  which is how I got my 243, had to be careful what I said after that

some years I suffer hundreds of pounds worth of damage

I could only find the 1991 act

it may have been changed

[Walker570]

Munties are now getting along railway lines and into gardens in towns and villages where a centre fire rifle would not be permissable or sensible. I think these areas would be sensible places for a shotgun to be used.    If the damage is being done on an area not in populated areas then a 22 centre fire is the choice in my opinion.  I have permision to shoot in various places which border villages and rights of way, but the sensible positioning of a few high seats allows me the use of a centre fire rifle, by far more humane and a better choice in my view.

Recently skinned a couple of munties peppered with #5 shot by someone who should not be in possesion of a gun, even a toy one.

[Farmboy91]

1 hour ago, kier said:

As  I understood it AAA shot could be used on deer if they were damaging ones crop but have to be shot on the same land as the damage was done or have written  permission from the owner,  mountjac  can be shot humanely any time

but when I asked the FAO if it was legal he said no and then asked me if I would like a 243  which is how I got my 243, had to be careful what I said after that

some years I suffer hundreds of pounds worth of damage

I could only find the 1991 act

it may have been changed

 

16 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Munties are now getting along railway lines and into gardens in towns and villages where a centre fire rifle would not be permissable or sensible. I think these areas would be sensible places for a shotgun to be used.    If the damage is being done on an area not in populated areas then a 22 centre fire is the choice in my opinion.  I have permision to shoot in various places which border villages and rights of way, but the sensible positioning of a few high seats allows me the use of a centre fire rifle, by far more humane and a better choice in my view.

Recently skinned a couple of munties peppered with #5 shot by someone who should not be in possesion of a gun, even a toy one.

Thank you both for your replies. 

Kier, your first paragraph was from how I read the deer act I took it to. 

I think because of where I am id struggle with the FAC, last time I called me feo to ask a shooting related question he told me he'd have to get back to me as he's not a shooter himself so I'll probably give that a miss. 

Up until now it's been a case of running up to the top of garden when I see one and using strong language and waving arms to scare them away. Would be handy to be able to keep a couple heavy carts in my pocket just incase. 

[ClemFandango]

Build a fence...

It is only legal to use a shotgun and AAA for deer in specific circumstances.

taken from

http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/best_practice/legislation_health_and_safety_and_welfare.php

Damage by deer. [s.7Deer Act] On any cultivated land, pasture or enclosed 
woodland, deer may be shot during the close season and a shotgun can be used in certain circumstances 
[see below] in order to prevent damage.

This action may be taken by the occupier of the land in person 
and with his written permission by:
Any member of the occupier’s household normally resident on the land;
Any person in ordinary service of the occupier of the land; Any person having the right to take or kill deer 
on the land; Any person acting with written authority of a person having that right.

Subject to that person having: Reasonable grounds for believing that deer of the same species were causing or had caused damage to crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber or any other form of property on the land and;
further damage was likely to be caused and was likely to be serious;

The action was necessary to prevent any such damage. 

If a shotgun is to be used, the following conditions apply

It must be not smaller than a 12 bore;
AAA shot ONLY may be used,

or A single non-spherical projectile weighing not less than 22.68 grammes (350 grains) 

Note that a firearms certificate is required to purchase such ammunition.

I don't know why Dekers keeps referencing humane despatch, he's correct, you can use any means necessary to put an animal out of it's suffering but it is totally irrelevant in your case as you aren't talking about wounded muntjac. 

Unless you are selling your apples as a commercial crop, have tried all other methods to prevent damage and can prove it is muntjac doing the damage I would say you would struggle to justify the legality in your situation. 

You may find that you can shoot the legally with a fullbore. Your FLO's ignorance isn't really an excuse for you not to apply. If you have good reason then put in an application for a deer calibre rifle on that basis. Then you can control them legally. 

 

[London Best]

@ clemfandango

CORRECT ANSWER.

[kier]

if its just for your garden then I cant see that you could use a shotgun at all 

in my case im an xmas tree grower/retailer and can show damage to my crop and its really part of my job to protect my living

I net my 6 cherry trees against deer and birds but have acres of trees 

unless you have more area than a garden I doubt you would get a licence but it would be up to your FAO

they have inspected and passed where I need to shoot

Edited June 13, 2019 by kier

[Walker570]

clemfandango .... exactly...in a nutshell.     My reference to 'humane' was the killing of deer or any animal at any time and I don't believe shooting an animal the size of a muntie..they are tough little boogers... with a shotgun is humane.  Why they still put the shotgun bit in the regs I don't know because thankfully we left behind those awful days of shooting deer with shotguns many moons ago.

[Farmboy91]

1 hour ago, kier said:

if its just for your garden then I cant see that you could use a shotgun at all 

in my case im an xmas tree grower/retailer and can show damage to my crop and its really part of my job to protect my living

I net my 6 cherry trees against deer and birds but have acres of trees 

unless you have more area than a garden I doubt you would get a licence but it would be up to your FAO

they have inspected and passed where I need to shoot

It's a large garden, roughly an acre and it's boarded on 3 sides by my other perms. 

Any shooting with a rifle would have to be done from a high seat though. 

55 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

clemfandango .... exactly...in a nutshell.     My reference to 'humane' was the killing of deer or any animal at any time and I don't believe shooting an animal the size of a muntie..they are tough little boogers... with a shotgun is humane.  Why they still put the shotgun bit in the regs I don't know because thankfully we left behind those awful days of shooting deer with shotguns many moons ago.

 

2 hours ago, ClemFandango said:

Build a fence...

It is only legal to use a shotgun and AAA for deer in specific circumstances.

taken from

http://www.thedeerinitiative.co.uk/best_practice/legislation_health_and_safety_and_welfare.php

Damage by deer. [s.7Deer Act] On any cultivated land, pasture or enclosed 
woodland, deer may be shot during the close season and a shotgun can be used in certain circumstances 
[see below] in order to prevent damage.

This action may be taken by the occupier of the land in person 
and with his written permission by:
Any member of the occupier’s household normally resident on the land;
Any person in ordinary service of the occupier of the land; Any person having the right to take or kill deer 
on the land; Any person acting with written authority of a person having that right.

Subject to that person having: Reasonable grounds for believing that deer of the same species were causing or had caused damage to crops, vegetables, fruit, growing timber or any other form of property on the land and;
further damage was likely to be caused and was likely to be serious;

The action was necessary to prevent any such damage. 

If a shotgun is to be used, the following conditions apply

It must be not smaller than a 12 bore;
AAA shot ONLY may be used,

or A single non-spherical projectile weighing not less than 22.68 grammes (350 grains) 

Note that a firearms certificate is required to purchase such ammunition.

I don't know why Dekers keeps referencing humane despatch, he's correct, you can use any means necessary to put an animal out of it's suffering but it is totally irrelevant in your case as you aren't talking about wounded muntjac. 

Unless you are selling your apples as a commercial crop, have tried all other methods to prevent damage and can prove it is muntjac doing the damage I would say you would struggle to justify the legality in your situation. 

You may find that you can shoot the legally with a fullbore. Your FLO's ignorance isn't really an excuse for you not to apply. If you have good reason then put in an application for a deer calibre rifle on that basis. Then you can control them legally. 

 

Thanks, using a shotgun wouldn't be my preference. I may well look down the FAC route, I hadnt planned to specifically go out after them with a shotgun, just wanted to explore the option and its always best to ask those more knowledgeable. 

Thanks for all the replies. 

Edit, I briefly touched on this with my rfd, he mentioned that .22 hornet was the smallest you could sensibly go on a muntjac, does that sound about right? 

Sorry if it's a daft question. 

Edit again, after a quick spell on Google I've found out it's not. 

Probably looking at a .223

Edited June 13, 2019 by Farmboy91

[oowee]

I had the same problems with Roe in my garden eating new trees. I bought some AAA ready to shoot the b...... but then realized that the only chance I would have to shoot is from the house towards the orchard and there is another house about 150 yds away. As they are 9mm pellets I thought its probably not wise 🙂 I instead fenced the front hedge and that stopped them coming through the front and I can shoot them out the back with the rifle. 

You need a .22 c/f  min of 50g bullet and 1000lb of energy for Muntjac so Hornet will fall short. You may find this site helpful. https://www.bds.org.uk/index.php

[Lloyd90]

27 minutes ago, oowee said:

I had the same problems with Roe in my garden eating new trees. I bought some AAA ready to shoot the b...... but then realized that the only chance I would have to shoot is from the house towards the orchard and there is another house about 150 yds away. As they are 9mm pellets I thought its probably not wise 🙂 I instead fenced the front hedge and that stopped them coming through the front and I can shoot them out the back with the rifle. 

You need a .22 c/f  min of 50g bullet and 1000lb of energy for Muntjac so Hornet will fall short. You may find this site helpful. https://www.bds.org.uk/index.php

 

I thought AAA was only 5mm? Supposedly 37 pellets per Oz. 

I’m surprised Ferdangos post says your only allowed to use AAA shot. 

Surely BUCK SHOT would be appropriate for shooting deer. 

SG’s are I believe just shy of 9mm. I have a couple, 36g contains about 9-10 pellets and they’re big nasty looking things that you would not want to get hit with. 

[Farmboy91]

16 minutes ago, oowee said:

I had the same problems with Roe in my garden eating new trees. I bought some AAA ready to shoot the b...... but then realized that the only chance I would have to shoot is from the house towards the orchard and there is another house about 150 yds away. As they are 9mm pellets I thought its probably not wise 🙂 I instead fenced the front hedge and that stopped them coming through the front and I can shoot them out the back with the rifle. 

You need a .22 c/f  min of 50g bullet and 1000lb of energy for Muntjac so Hornet will fall short. You may find this site helpful. https://www.bds.org.uk/index.php

Thank you, that looked a useful site. 

The trees are already ringed with wire but it hasn't made much of a difference. The cost for fencing the whole garden would be rather large. 

I'll have to look into what it's going to cost to set up with a rifle to. 

6 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

I thought AAA was only 5mm? Supposedly 37 pellets per Oz. 

I’m surprised Ferdangos post says your only allowed to use AAA shot. 

Surely BUCK SHOT would be appropriate for shooting deer. 

SG’s are I believe just shy of 9mm. I have a couple, 36g contains about 9-10 pellets and they’re big nasty looking things that you would not want to get hit with. 

I had read the deer act as AAA or bigger 

[oowee]

6 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

I thought AAA was only 5mm? Supposedly 37 pellets per Oz. 

I’m surprised Ferdangos post says your only allowed to use AAA shot. 

Surely BUCK SHOT would be appropriate for shooting deer. 

SG’s are I believe just shy of 9mm. I have a couple, 36g contains about 9-10 pellets and they’re big nasty looking things that you would not want to get hit with. 

Your right I was mixing the two up. It's SG's that are 9mm. 

Edited June 13, 2019 by oowee

[Lloyd90]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

Your right I was mixing the two up. It's SG's that I bought. 

SG’s are nasty Grant, you don’t want to get hit with one of those!! 

Like getting shot with 8 or 9 x 9mm bullets at once. 

They should make short work of deer in sensible ranges. I’m surprised we don’t allow more shotgun use on deer, but then again I think the Government don’t want everyone running about taking pot shots at them! 

[CharlieT]

31 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

 I’m surprised we don’t allow more shotgun use on deer, but then think the Government everyone running about taking pot shots at them! 

We used to but when the act was redrawn and out for public consultation, the BDS lobbied against the use of shotguns which resulted in the S7 exemption.

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, CharlieT said:

We used to but when the act was redrawn and out for public consultation, the BDS lobbied against the use of shotguns which resulted in the S7 exemption.

 

Any reason why? 🤔

[oowee]

2 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

SG’s are nasty Grant, you don’t want to get hit with one of those!! 

Like getting shot with 8 or 9 x 9mm bullets at once. 

They should make short work of deer in sensible ranges. I’m surprised we don’t allow more shotgun use on deer, but then again I think the Government don’t want everyone running about taking pot shots at them! 

I think most sportsman don't want to see everyone running about taking pot shots at them. A shotgun is not the right firearm for large mammals unless there are specific circumstances where they are the only tool for the job. 

[Dekers]

From The 1991 Deer Act.

(b)a cartridge purporting to contain shot each of which is .203 inches (5.16 millimetres) in diameter (that is to say, size AAA).

It's AAA size, bot bigger or smaller!

[CharlieT]

3 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

Any reason why? 🤔

Animal welfare.

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Dekers said:

From The 1991 Deer Act.

(b)a cartridge purporting to contain shot each of which is .203 inches (5.16 millimetres) in diameter (that is to say, size AAA).

It's AAA size, bot bigger or smaller!

👍

[Lloyd90]

1 hour ago, Dekers said:

From The 1991 Deer Act.

(b)a cartridge purporting to contain shot each of which is .203 inches (5.16 millimetres) in diameter (that is to say, size AAA).

It's AAA size, bot bigger or smaller!

So AAA size is ok, but not bigger.