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Mentor to obtain variation to centre fire


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I had a chat with my FEO  today to discuss my putting in for a variation to a centre fire. I initially asked for a .243 with the understanding that it would be used on fox, and would allow me to master it while finding a mentor and gaining deer to my licence in a year or so.

This was not allowed as .243 is deer legal and would not be granted for fox alone.

Ok, so can I have a variation to a .22 centre fire? .223 or .22-250?

You can, but need someone with an open ticket to write a covering letter to state I'm competent was the reply.

So where do I find someone who would do this as I don't know anyone to ask.

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Things are getting crazy, soon they will want to know how many sheets of loo paper you use each week.  Where is the law which says you cannot have a 243Win to shoot fox ?

This calibre was originally designed just for doing that. It was Lee McNally writing in Shooting Times who promoted the 243Win as an all powerful deer calibre.

The animal is not going to notice the difference between a 243 or a 22-250.    I hoped things would have improved from 30yrs ago when a West mercia licensing chap cam to look at some ground I had and he eventually admitted he had never ever held a rifle never mind fired one and was a little embarrased when I revealed I was a fully trained police tactical fireams officer.

They make the rules up as they go along.

Sorry I am so far away from you, but put some gas in my tank and I will come down and sign your letter for you.

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3 minutes ago, BSA-airgunner said:

PM inbound..........223.open..

 

You are a star! I forgot you had .223

36 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

Things are getting crazy, soon they will want to know how many sheets of loo paper you use each week.  Where is the law which says you cannot have a 243Win to shoot fox ?

This calibre was originally designed just for doing that. It was Lee McNally writing in Shooting Times who promoted the 243Win as an all powerful deer calibre.

The animal is not going to notice the difference between a 243 or a 22-250.    I hoped things would have improved from 30yrs ago when a West mercia licensing chap cam to look at some ground I had and he eventually admitted he had never ever held a rifle never mind fired one and was a little embarrased when I revealed I was a fully trained police tactical fireams officer.

They make the rules up as they go along.

Sorry I am so far away from you, but put some gas in my tank and I will come down and sign your letter for you.

Thanks for the offer, I know I would learn more in an hour from you, than in months on my own.

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12 hours ago, Sussex gardener said:

I had a chat with my FEO  today to discuss my putting in for a variation to a centre fire. I initially asked for a .243 with the understanding that it would be used on fox, and would allow me to master it while finding a mentor and gaining deer to my licence in a year or so.

This was not allowed as .243 is deer legal and would not be granted for fox alone.

Ok, so can I have a variation to a .22 centre fire? .223 or .22-250?

You can, but need someone with an open ticket to write a covering letter to state I'm competent was the reply.

So where do I find someone who would do this as I don't know anyone to ask.

Ask them to show you the law.

Why should a letter from someone who simply holds an FAC be the deciding factor on whether you can have what you want?

I'm afraid that I would not sign a letter for anyone to aid them with their FAC. 

In doing so I would effectively be approving thier application. That's not my job. Why should I be given that responsibility?! What if anything should ever go wrong?!

No thanks, feos are paid to assess applicants and ensure that all of the rules/laws/guidelines and met. It's their responsibility and not mine.

Edd

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You could tell them to stick it up there **** as there is no need for any of that mentoring ****.

 

Tell them you want a .243 for foxes and for paid stalking. You do not need any proof for stalking as you already have a need for foxes.

Tell them you'll make an official complaint if they refuse as they are ignoring home office guidelines and making up false rules.

 

 

Why do people let these fannies walk all over them with this hoop jumping ****.?

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20 hours ago, Sussex gardener said:

I had a chat with my FEO  today to discuss my putting in for a variation to a centre fire. I initially asked for a .243 with the understanding that it would be used on fox, and would allow me to master it while finding a mentor and gaining deer to my licence in a year or so.

This was not allowed as .243 is deer legal and would not be granted for fox alone.

Ok, so can I have a variation to a .22 centre fire? .223 or .22-250?

You can, but need someone with an open ticket to write a covering letter to state I'm competent was the reply.

So where do I find someone who would do this as I don't know anyone to ask.

Different police forces have different rules. Mine (South Wales) have been known to grant a .243 for Fox only.

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1 hour ago, steve_b_wales said:

Different police forces have different rules. Mine (South Wales) have been known to grant a .243 for Fox only.

No they don't Steve.

They may interpret the rules differently but they don't make them. If pushed they will,or at least should, all revert to the same home office guidance.

The conditions that are often imposed are usually not in line with the HO guidelines and the more that people just accept what Feos say as gospel then the more they will get away with it and the sooner none of us will be allowed any guns at all.

It's strict enough without stupid conditions being added.

 

Edd

Edited by eddoakley
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I had a lot of this nonsense when I applied for my 243 (for long range foxing). I was encouraged to get a mentor, which I had already lined up, my regular shooting oppo at that time. Two weeks later they decided that he couldn't be my mentor as he didn't have an open ticket? They then suggested that I do a firearms awareness course or a DSC1. I refused the firearms awareness course on the grounds that I had been a firearm instructor in the military and had shot inter forces all round the world and it was patronising so I just booked up to do my DSC1 over a weekend, which I found was very informative, passed with no problems, so now have a reason to hold which cannot be denied. The mentoring thing has been dropped here as the FLD have realised its just a letter that comes with no proof of competence or even any outings!

It is easy to suggest that a newbie take on a FLD with challenges to the law, but that is an easy position to be in with many renewals under your belt.

I do feel though that requesting from the FLD just what and where in law does it say that 243 is not to be used on fox is a good idea. I also agree that if you book a couple of days accompanied stalking and can show that you have, they will not have any reason to turn you down. Don`t worry about the fact that you may not take up stalking for a year or so, you dont want to have to buy two rifles in a short time and then not use the smaller calibre. Don`t forget your moderator.

Go for it and good luck.

Edited by Flyboy1950
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41 minutes ago, eddoakley said:

No they don't Steve.

They may interpret the rules differently but they don't make them. If pushed they will,or at least should, all revert to the same home office guidance.

The conditions that are often imposed are usually not in line with the HO guidelines and the more that people just accept what Feos say as gospel then the more they will get away with it and the sooner none of us will be allowed any guns at all.

It's strict enough without stupid conditions being added.

 

Edd

That's what I meant, Edd.:good:

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Sussex Gardener - your FEO needs a proper education and I suggest you refer him to the Home Office Guidance to Police 2016 See Page 123 and this will show the Home Office advise to the Police and shooters alike is that .243 IS SUITABLE for FOX.

See the table relating to Quarry Shooting on Page 123.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/firearms-licensing-police-guidance

I have some sympathy with the idea that new shooters need some mentoring before being let loose with a powerful firearm on their own and there is some inequity if you want a centrefire and have land and money to buy one the law permits you to be in the field the same day you get your ticket. If you want to target shoot you have 6 months of probation to shoot at a location specifically designed and operated to be safe - go figure. DSC is a good Idea but in any event Joining a good club is always a good Idea.

Good Luck with your application - learn the guidance it can be very helpful!

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Thanks for all the replies and input.

I suggested a DSC1 as I felt a standardized test would be a more fair way of showing competence. The reply was DSC1 is a good starting point, but not sufficient for a grant as it doesn't include real world practice on actual deer. 

.243 for fox wouldn't be allowed as it comes with automatic ALQ, and is not species specific.

As said above, as a relative newcomer to rifles, 12 months of rimfire ownership and a few outings on boar in France, it is difficult to argue with the FEO for fear of them taking a dislike and making life difficult. 

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i got asked a few years ago what i thought of someone needing a mentor up here i said it was a very bad idea as you need the land owners permission to shoot on the land  as you have to see if the person you are to mentor knows the safe areas to shoot   back stops etc   this would need done day and night  even after you seeing the person is safe etc  does not mean they will be the same when your not there    the feo agreed

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