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Shot pistols


Tford
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Hi,

Just wondering how many people have, and use, shot pistols and the uses they were granted for.

i have a 410 Taurus Judge Revolver  6 inch barrel (2 shot restricted) for the dispatch of trapped fox, and potentially dispatch of deer although it’s too unwieldy to carrying on the hip whilst stalking. 

Considering reducing it to 3 inch barrel to slip into a cartridge pocket... although it’ll still be quite the lump. 

Anyway interested to hear from other shot pistol users.

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18 minutes ago, ClemFandango said:

Why would you want to carry a pistol for despatch while stalking? You have a rifle on your back. 

 

 

Follow up needed after lung hit roe doe made it 15 yards into a ditch thickly overgrown  with blackthorn etc. No way to take a safe and efficient follow up shot with a rifle,  even getting in there was a painful experience. A .410 pistol would have been ideal, as that was not available a knife was used.

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As much of a handgun nut as I am I am always sceptical about the need for one for humane despatch of any animal.

Six inch barrelled handguns aren’t ‘unwieldy’ in my experience, especially in a cross draw belt holster, ( or indeed a shoulder rig ) whether inside or outside a jacket, and granted, I wasn’t there, but to be able to get close enough to a deer to cut its throat but not to be able to take a safe shot with a CF rifle ( whereas a .410 would have been safe ? ) is just confusing. 

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9 hours ago, 243deer said:

Follow up needed after lung hit roe doe made it 15 yards into a ditch thickly overgrown  with blackthorn etc. No way to take a safe and efficient follow up shot with a rifle,  even getting in there was a painful experience. A .410 pistol would have been ideal, as that was not available a knife was 

There is nothing about that scenario that is improved by having a pistol over a rifle. Where you gain with one, you lose with another. 

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16 minutes ago, ClemFandango said:

There is nothing about that scenario that is improved by having a pistol over a rifle. Where you gain with one, you lose with another. 

A 6.5x55 round for example would go straight through. What if the ground were rocky, unsafe stop for a rifle round but ideal for a close dispatch with 410 pistol. What about additional meat damage? What about confined areas with a thrashing beast? What about at close range the scope is out/useless for a well placed shot?

 

Anyway, back to the original post to shot pistol owners....

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27 minutes ago, Tford said:

A 6.5x55 round for example would go straight through. What if the ground were rocky, unsafe stop for a rifle round but ideal for a close dispatch with 410 pistol. What about additional meat damage? What about confined areas with a thrashing beast? What about at close range the scope is out/useless for a well placed shot?

 

Anyway, back to the original post to shot pistol owners....

You are shooting down into a ditch. Perfectly safe.

If you have a rocky backstop that you don't deem safe for a rifle do you think it's safe to get close enough to despatch a deer with a shot pistol?

Humane despatch has got nothing to do with meat damage, primary concern is ending suffering.

If you think a shot pistol is the ideal tool to despatch a thrashing deer at close range in tight cover you are very much mistaken.

At close range if you don't have a vari-power scope, don't use the scope, look down the side or even over. 

I used to have a CASH .32 pistol for humane despatch at roadside. It was useful in about five percent of cases. It was no more useful than a shotgun and I often ended up using my .270 

You aren't the only deer stalker in the UK, if they were such a useful tool it would be more common for stalkers to carry them. The FC cull thousands and thousands of deer annually. How many of their stalkers have a pistol for humane despatch do you think?

You already have a pistol and are already using it for dispatching foxes, you are already aware of it's limitations and uses. How much more usefulness do you really think you are going to get  out of it by taking three inches off the end? 

You asked for experiences. I am a deer manager who has experience with using a pistol for humane despatch. My advice is don't bother, they aren't the tool they appear to be and are only useful in a handful of scenarios where actually a rifle or a knife would do the job just as well. If you only want to hear people saying that it's a great idea then just do it and find out for yourself. 

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1 minute ago, ClemFandango said:

You are shooting down into a ditch. Perfectly safe.

If you have a rocky backstop that you don't deem safe for a rifle do you think it's safe to get close enough to despatch a deer with a shot pistol?

Humane despatch has got nothing to do with meat damage, primary concern is ending suffering.

If you think a shot pistol is the ideal tool to despatch a thrashing deer at close range in tight cover you are very much mistaken.

At close range if you don't have a vari-power scope, don't use the scope, look down the side or even over. 

I used to have a CASH .32 pistol for humane despatch at roadside. It was useful in about five percent of cases. It was no more useful than a shotgun and I often ended up using my .270 

You aren't the only deer stalker in the UK, if they were such a useful tool it would be more common for stalkers to carry them. The FC cull thousands and thousands of deer annually. How many of their stalkers have a pistol for humane despatch do you think?

You already have a pistol and are already using it for dispatching foxes, you are already aware of it's limitations and uses. How much more usefulness do you really think you are going to get  out of it by taking three inches off the end? 

You asked for experiences. I am a deer manager who has experience with using a pistol for humane despatch. My advice is don't bother, they aren't the tool they appear to be and are only useful in a handful of scenarios where actually a rifle or a knife would do the job just as well. If you only want to hear people saying that it's a great idea then just do it and find out for yourself. 

Do I consider that there are 410 shots that might otherwise be unsafe with a deer calibre centrefire - damn right I do (as always if done right).

And I agree 99% of cases the rifle or knife will do. Hence I’ve never carried it for stalking and don’t plan to, but I wont criticise those who chose to carry one, much like I don’t criticise owners of guns I don’t see the need for (i.e 50 cal).

And NO, I didn’t ask for experiences of general pistol users or thoughts on whether a dispatch pistol is warranted. I also didn’t ask for thought on whether losing three inches would make it more useful (It wouldn’t - it’d make it worse) but it would fit neatly in a jacket pocket which for me is handy.

Anyway, back to the point... I asked who else has and uses a shot pistol and for what uses you were granted it?

 

 

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18 minutes ago, Tford said:

Do I consider that there are 410 shots that might otherwise be unsafe with a deer calibre centrefire - damn right I do (as always if done right).

And I agree 99% of cases the rifle or knife will do. Hence I’ve never carried it for stalking and don’t plan to, but I wont criticise those who chose to carry one, much like I don’t criticise owners of guns I don’t see the need for (i.e 50 cal).

And NO, I didn’t ask for experiences of general pistol users or thoughts on whether a dispatch pistol is warranted. I also didn’t ask for thought on whether losing three inches would make it more useful (It wouldn’t - it’d make it worse) but it would fit neatly in a jacket pocket which for me is handy.

Anyway, back to the point... I asked who else has and uses a shot pistol and for what uses you were granted it?

 

 

You said it's too unwieldy to carry on the hip whilst stalking, so I pointed out it isn't, with the right rig, but now you're saying you've never carried it for stalking? 

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Just now, Scully said:

You said it's too unwieldy to carry on the hip whilst stalking, so I pointed out it isn't, with the right rig, but now you're saying you've never carried it for stalking? 

Yes... but I’ve carried it elsewhere!l for many miles, though different terrain, including on my stalking ground... I don’t need to actually carry it on a real stalk to form an opinion.

I’m terribly sorry that I expressed an opinion that doesn’t agree with yours. I shall be sure to run any further thoughts past you first 😁

Anyway back to the question to shot pistol owners....

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Exactly what question do you want answered by shot pistol owners? 

Just what conditions they got their pistol granted under? 

So all that other stuff in your OP is irrelevant? 

20 minutes ago, Tford said:

Yes... but I’ve carried it elsewhere!l for many miles, though different terrain, including on my stalking ground... I don’t need to actually carry it on a real stalk to form an opinion.

I’m terribly sorry that I expressed an opinion that doesn’t agree with yours. I shall be sure to run any further thoughts past you first 😁

Anyway back to the question to shot pistol owners....

That's the pot calling the kettle black! 

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35 minutes ago, Tford said:

Yes... but I’ve carried it elsewhere!l for many miles, though different terrain, including on my stalking ground... I don’t need to actually carry it on a real stalk to form an opinion.

I’m terribly sorry that I expressed an opinion that doesn’t agree with yours. I shall be sure to run any further thoughts past you first 😁

Anyway back to the question to shot pistol owners....

I'm a little confused as to the point of your post then, but there again, you appear to be confused also. 

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The OP is fairly clear as to the point...

Just wondering how many people have, and use, shot pistols and the uses they were granted for?

[waffle about my use and thought on cutting it down]

Anyway interested to hear from other shot pistol users.

Quite simple really. Not sure how I can make dumb it down further for you. 

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1 hour ago, Tford said:

The OP is fairly clear as to the point...

Just wondering how many people have, and use, shot pistols and the uses they were granted for?

[waffle about my use and thought on cutting it down]

Anyway interested to hear from other shot pistol users.

Quite simple really. Not sure how I can make dumb it down further for you. 

Fair enough.

I had a side by side .410 shot pistol in the late nineties for rats in farm buildings. It was useless. I got rid of it and got a  410 pump action full length easier to aim and no less wieldy shotgun. Which was also adequate for dispatching foxes in cages, pigs, sheep and deer etc. Never once have I ever thought that I wanted to cut it down so it would fit in my pocket while I was stalking as I have a perfectly good rifle on my back for dispatching deer.  

I also had a CASH .32 for a while. Similar story really, No real benefit so I got rid of it. 

If I was in to pistol shooting and it were still legal I'd have one for target shooting but for me they have very little practical application outside of that that isn't already covered by a shotgun/rifle which is a way more versatile tool. 

My advice is get rid of your Taurus altogether and get something more useful. If nothing else you'll have loads more pocket space for sweeties, marbles, spare change, small bits of string, a handkerchief, toilet roll, anything pocket sized that you can actually use really. 

Hope that addresses your question without straying too far into any wider discussion about any of the other stuff you put in your original post which god forbid anyone might read and think that discussion might allowed on an internet discussion forum. 

Good luck hypo critically insulting Scully. That was fun to read. 

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2 hours ago, Dougy said:

I thought stalking was all about minimal tackle, lightweight rifles and all that. Not going out equipped like John Wayne going to wipe out a tribe of Indians. 

 

Each to their own I suppose, crack on. 

That reminds me. I currently run a wagon train across the midwest of America, It's really useful if you need somewhere to set up camp on the prairie, brew up some coffee, heat some beans and jerky etc. 

 I'm considering halving the amount of wagons so I can take it stalking with me instead of my thermos for when I want a hot drink. 

I'd be interested to hear the views of any other wagon train drivers about what they use their wagon trains for and what conditions the pilgrims have placed on them. 

I only want to hear from people who think reducing the size of a wagon train and using it to set up camp and make coffee while stalking instead of taking a thermos is a good idea. I'm not interested in anyone who thinks differently to me. 

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I have a double chest ring and bandolier for my dispatch pistols, I carry two because it's better to overgun than undergun.

the FEO did advise carrying a badge to say I was licensed to conceal carry, however I replied "BADGES?!!, I DONT NEED NO STINKING BADGES!!!!!!! ( apologies to Eli wallach)

 

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8 hours ago, ClemFandango said:

Fair enough.

I had a side by side .410 shot pistol in the late nineties for rats in farm buildings. It was useless. I got rid of it and got a  410 pump action full length easier to aim and no less wieldy shotgun. Which was also adequate for dispatching foxes in cages, pigs, sheep and deer etc. Never once have I ever thought that I wanted to cut it down so it would fit in my pocket while I was stalking as I have a perfectly good rifle on my back for dispatching deer.  

I also had a CASH .32 for a while. Similar story really, No real benefit so I got rid of it. 

If I was in to pistol shooting and it were still legal I'd have one for target shooting but for me they have very little practical application outside of that that isn't already covered by a shotgun/rifle which is a way more versatile tool. 

My advice is get rid of your Taurus altogether and get something more useful. If nothing else you'll have loads more pocket space for sweeties, marbles, spare change, small bits of string, a handkerchief, toilet roll, anything pocket sized that you can actually use really. 

Hope that addresses your question without straying too far into any wider discussion about any of the other stuff you put in your original post which god forbid anyone might read and think that discussion might allowed on an internet discussion forum. 

Good luck hypo critically insulting Scully. That was fun to read. 

🙂 Reminds me, back in the days before we became psychopaths a mate and me used to sneak around in and out the farm buildings with our .38/357 revolvers, loaded with shot. The cartridges had a red plastic base containing the powder, and the rest was a clear blue plastic through which you could see the shot. They were .38 Special in length and absolutely useless! 🙂 

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14 hours ago, ClemFandango said:

There is nothing about that scenario that is improved by having a pistol over a rifle. Where you gain with one, you lose with another. 

May I ask please how many deer you have shot over how many years as you write with such conviction?

There was so much thick  vegetation that you could not even see the deer properly from outside of the ditch (only hear its stuccato breathing through the entry/exit wound) meaning that you could not take a safe shot with anything until you had forced your way through very thick and painful vegetation until pretty much on top of the deer. A rifle would have been extremely difficult to use to the point of being unsafe and the extra time taken to get it through the vegetation very unfair on the deer in a far from ideal situation which does however reflect real life as in not being perfect. If you take the trouble to look at the kit the boys in the UKSHA and the UKDTR (they always deserve a mention as they have helped numerous stalkers when things have not gone perfectly) wear when out tracking deer you will see that its primary objective is that it is protective, This is so that if they have to crawl into the middle of a thicket of brambles to dispatch an animal they can - you will also note that they carry a knife for this situation as a rifle is not practical, part of their training in Germany is using the knife for a quick and humane dispatch. I agree that it is rare that a pistol is needed but it is not black and white that it is never needed. Humane dispatch when in the view of the public where you wish to keep human distress as well as the animals to a minimum may well mean that a pistol is the most discrete method. 

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I'm not getting into numbers of deer that I have shot, I find that vulgar and it's not really relevant. 

I'm well aware of the tracking organisations, I am a member of the BMHS and have a wire haired pointer that I use solely for deer stalking. 

You pretty much make the same point as me though, UKDTR and UKSHA carry a knife or a rifle. Not pistols. I attended Niels Sondergaartens dog tracking course maybe ten years ago, he carries a rifle when tracking. 

I don't but the thick cover argument, if you have to crawl into cover that thick and nasty to that depth and the deer doesn't go bolting out the other side then it is incapacitated. In thay scenario if you can get close enough to shoot it with a pistol you can stick it with a knife. 

If it is mobile how are you going to take an aimed shot with anything? a pistol, especially a shot pistol only has a very limited accurate/effective range as soon as you get close enough to do the job the deer is out the other side. 

I have had to recover deer for myself, neighbouring stalkers, freinds, clients etc out of all kinds of dense cover, brambles, gorse, blackthorn, Sitka Spruce plantation, I have despatched deer for the police and RSPCA in housing estates, on motorways, country lanes etc etc. I have despatched domestic livestock in farm fields and buildings. Given my experience over the last 20ish years I would never reach for a pistol as a tool, shot or otherwise. I certainly wouldn't bother carrying one whilst stalking. Waste of money and pocket space.

As I mentioned previously how many deer are culled by the FC annually in England do you think? Thousands. Not one of their staff carries a pistol for humane despatch. 

I accept that there are very niche situations when a pistol might work and one of those situations is RTA's. I have dealt with RTA's myself and as I said before I used to have a .32 pistol solely for that purpose. The idea behind it is great, in practice there isn't really any benefit over a shotgun or rifle so I got rid of it. I never found discretion to be a problem. 

I have no issue with pistols, I see no reason (other than it is illegal) why people should not own them, target shooting with pistol is an incredibly skilled discipline and I take my hat off to anyone who can shoot one accurately. BUT in my experience they are a waste of time in a stalking scenario, they are a waste of time when following up deer, they have no advantage over a shotgun for RTA work or dispatching livestock. They are a tool I have tried and didn't work for me and it is my belief there are far better options out there. 

 

 

 

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after many ,many years of stalking not once did I feel the need to carry a pistol for humane dispatch . I was an avid pistol shooter back in the day and owned many pistols over the years . If I was going to use a pistol for humane dispatch then it would have been a .22 revolver or .32 revolver. I have shot a number of white tail deer in the states with a .44 magnum revolver during the hand gun season and a better short range cartridge for deer do not exist .

harnser

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3 hours ago, Harnser said:

after many ,many years of stalking not once did I feel the need to carry a pistol for humane dispatch . I was an avid pistol shooter back in the day and owned many pistols over the years . If I was going to use a pistol for humane dispatch then it would have been a .22 revolver or .32 revolver. I have shot a number of white tail deer in the states with a .44 magnum revolver during the hand gun season and a better short range cartridge for deer do not exist .

harnser

As above.

If you're really obsessed with this humane dispatch thing, get somebody to load you some low velocity cast lead ammo and use them through your rifle.

When you're stalking deer less is more. 

The thought of carrying a lump of a handgun around which I would never use is mind boggling.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Robertt said:

As above.

If you're really obsessed with this humane dispatch thing, get somebody to load you some low velocity cast lead ammo and use them through your rifle.

When you're stalking deer, less is more. 

The thought of carrying a lump of a handgun around which I would never use is mind boggling.

 

 

 

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