Who said police are underfunded, I doubt it from this farce

[GingerCat]

52 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Probably, but I bet they are paid an enhanced rate to help cushion the blow?......My beef isn't with the footsoldiers, as is usual, they don't control the decisions! Its their superiors and the politicians that do! 

I bet they were cancelled with more than 15 days notice and had their rest days put in the "bank" to take another day without any "enhanced" pay.they won't of course be able to take those rest days as their shifts will be perpetually under minimum strength so in effect they are working for free and losing a day off. 

[Fuddster]

wot so you are forced to work a Sunday on your weekend off? then can't take it off til a Tuesday in November?

You need a union mate.

f.

 

[panoma1]

13 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

I bet they were cancelled with more than 15 days notice and had their rest days put in the "bank" to take another day without any "enhanced" pay.they won't of course be able to take those rest days as their shifts will be perpetually under minimum strength so in effect they are working for free and losing a day off. 

You may well be right, but if that is the case.......more fool them! But as I have said all through this thread, my "beef" is not with the footsoldiers, they are not the ones that make the decisions!

[ph5172]

12 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

I bet they were cancelled with more than 15 days notice and had their rest days put in the "bank" to take another day without any "enhanced" pay.they won't of course be able to take those rest days as their shifts will be perpetually under minimum strength so in effect they are working for free and losing a day off. 

Would they also be the banked days you can take when rosters allow and then get moaned at that you have too many days banked and need to take them but get refused because there is no cover to cover  the cover as they are also trying to take bank days of which you end up loosing. 

[GingerCat]

2 hours ago, ph5172 said:

Would they also be the banked days you can take when rosters allow and then get moaned at that you have too many days banked and need to take them but get refused because there is no cover to cover  the cover as they are also trying to take bank days of which you end up loosing. 

Those would be the ones. The ones that never get taken as there's not enough staff as people keep leaving. The ones where even though you booked them off 12 months in advance for a wedding or whatever it's cancelled. 

As Panoma says "more fool them", well the way it's going he may end up with what he wishes for. 

[panoma1]

7 hours ago, GingerCat said:

Those would be the ones. The ones that never get taken as there's not enough staff as people keep leaving. The ones where even though you booked them off 12 months in advance for a wedding or whatever it's cancelled. 

As Panoma says "more fool them", well the way it's going he may end up with what he wishes for. 

That's usually what it takes to change things!........if you don't stop giving, they will not stop taking!

[GingerCat]

1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

That's usually what it takes to change things!........if you don't stop giving, they will not stop taking!

You can't stop giving though, that's the problem. Its unlawful to take any industrial action. So the option is to leave. Bearing in mind you earn more in Tesco stacking shelves at night than you do as a cop for the first 3 years it's hardly surprising the turn over is so great. I know of 2 who have resigned last week alone. 

[panoma1]

2 minutes ago, GingerCat said:

You can't stop giving though, that's the problem. Its unlawful to take any industrial action. So the option is to leave. Bearing in mind you earn more in Tesco stacking shelves at night than you do as a cop for the first 3 years it's hardly surprising the turn over is so great. I know of 2 who have resigned last week alone. 

Bet there ain't no senior officers leaving though? 

[GingerCat]

1 minute ago, panoma1 said:

Bet there ain't no senior officers leaving though? 

They are all retiring. Very few staying on unlike a few years ago when you couldn't get them out. Some have left also for other jobs . Not the land of roses for anyone. 

[Raja Clavata]

20 hours ago, lakeside1000 said:

21 police patrol motorcycles,3 police cars all with blue lights flashing,18 support motorcycles with riders in orange vests,1 county ambulance and an unknown number of local council workers in council vehicles, Sunday morning at 9.00 am on the new Norwich ring road near Sprowston, This is what our rates are spent on, and what were they doing you may ask, Well I will tell you, escorting approximately 50 yes 50 road race cyclists on a Sunday morning jaunt, who in gods name authorised this madness, traffic was at a standstill both side of the roundabout for almost 20 minutes, actual time for the peleton to pass the road block about 15 seconds, With knife crime, drugs, burglaries and who knows what other crime waves we are suffering in Norwich , all on the increase, police say limited funds and staffing problems restrict their response time and efforts, NO RESTRICTION for a bunch of cyclists though, some one should be held to account for this total waste of public and police funds.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That bunch of cyclists were professional athletes competing in the national road championships - won by Ben Swift (Team Ineos).

As participants in outdoor pursuits we expect the public to be somewhat tolerant / sympathetic to our passions but appear to have no tolerance for others!?

18 hours ago, panoma1 said:

We had the same with the Birmingham  "Velo" cycle event a month or two ago, all the roads around the route were closed, no buses, no cars......some roads were fully closed from 8am until about 6pm! Some people were stuck in the house all bloody day........why? So that thousands of amateur cyclists could ride around Birmingham on mile upon mile of empty roads! The place was crawling with police motorcycles, ambulances, marshals etc......it inconvenienced everyone, except the cyclists.....god know how much it cost, and who paid for it?

I took part in the first Brum Velo - the start was delayed for over an hour due to disruptions caused by the public along the route. Enroute we came across tacks placed on the roads in two places including a fast descent and another section that had oil spread across the road. Charming. In contrast the people in Bewdley greeted us with a party / carnival atmosphere and most welcoming - very happy to see the temporary boost to their local economy.

[Penelope]

2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

That bunch of cyclists were professional athletes competing in the national road championships - won by Ben Swift (Team Ineos).

As participants in outdoor pursuits we expect the public to be somewhat tolerant / sympathetic to our passions but appear to have no tolerance for others!?

I took part in the first Brum Velo - the start was delayed for over an hour due to disruptions caused by the public along the route. Enroute we came across tacks placed on the roads in two places including a fast descent and another section that had oil spread across the road. Charming. In contrast the people in Bewdley greeted us with a party / carnival atmosphere and most welcoming - very happy to see the temporary boost to their local economy.

👍

[figgy]

This topic was about the waste of money and police time and resources taken up.

Now we have tales of woe from cyclists about the public putting tacks and oil on the road. Boosts to local economy,  how at 9.30 on a Sunday morning on major local roads. Not going to have lots of spectators lining the major roads buying from local businesses at that time.

I've had run ins with cyclists of the worst kind in Yorkshire and in the Lakes. Much like shooting sports the few tend to give the rest a bad name. Some are very courteous and wave when you pass as they move to let you go by. The worst one look behind and take turns holding you up for miles and then get tardy shouting and giving lots of finger waving when you do get chance to pass and take it along with lots of others in a tail back of their making.

[Raja Clavata]

18 hours ago, old'un said:

I often bump into cyclists down the country lanes riding two or three abreast, they are most put out when they have to go single file for me to pass them.

It's perfectly legal for cyclists to ride two abreast where road conditions permit it to be done so safely just as it is for a single file line to take the primary position on the road at certain times. 

[Raja Clavata]

1 minute ago, figgy said:

This topic was about the waste of money and police time and resources taken up.

Now we have tales of woe from cyclists about the public putting tacks and oil on the road. Boosts to local economy,  how at 9.30 on a Sunday morning on major local roads. Not going to have lots of spectators lining the major roads buying from local businesses at that time.

I've had run ins with cyclists of the worst kind in Yorkshire and in the Lakes. Much like shooting sports the few tend to give the rest a bad name. Some are very courteous and wave when you pass as they move to let you go by. The worst one look behind and take turns holding you up for miles and then get tardy shouting and giving lots of finger waving when you do get chance to pass and take it along with lots of others in a tail back of their making.

That's how the topic started but comments were made about cycling in general.

The event was a professional national sporting event, in terms of Police resources was it anything "worse" than a big game of footie at Wembley? 

[squirrelhall]

7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

That's how the topic started but comments were made about cycling in general.

The event was a professional national sporting event, in terms of Police resources was it anything "worse" than a big game of footie at Wembley? 

Aye how many cops are on duty at football matches through the season. How many at these marches and demos. Loads on duty at commonwealth games in Glasgow shipped in from all over Scotland.

[Westward]

As for the topic...

No the police are not underfunded nor are they understaffed but over the last 30 or so years they've taken on assorted extra responsibilities and rearranged their priorities. Most of these changes are entirely without reference to or request from the public whom they are supposed to serve.

If you ask a modern, degree qualified, fast tracked chief officer with little or no experience at the sharp end of policing what his/her main priority is are they will say "public safety". I mention this simply to avoid any mistaken idea that the police are primarily there for the maintenance of law and order.

To be topical, in 1970 I attended the Bath Music Festival held near Shepton Mallet. ( Incidentally, a certain local farmer, Michael Eavis, gatecrashed the event and that's where he got the idea for the Glastonbury Festival). At the 1970 festival, despite 100,000+ visitors there was just one police car with 2 officers helping to minimise traffic problems and generally enjoying the atmosphere. Since there was no crime or violence the officers had a very pleasant 3 days.

The policing overkill at public events and demos is not only unnecessary most of the time, but the typically heavy handed policing all too often leads to friction and sometimes violence. The Countryside Alliance march in 2002 being a prime example. Even worse is the totally illegal move they call "Kettling" where they herd people into a cul-de-sac and prevent them from leaving.

This country would be a better place to live if the police concentrated on doing the job most of the public want them to do - which is after all the job they were created to do.

p.s. Don't get me started on cyclists!!!

Edited July 1, 2019 by Westward
typos

[ph5172]

There was one force recently who failed to recruit any new constables due to the minimum requirement of a 1st class degree to get through the screening process - funnily enough most 1st class degree recipients dont fancy working for 20k a year 

I have known fast track entrants book hotels near (15 mins away)  assessment centres 'to make sure they were there on time' despite living less than an hour away anyhow and being on the afternoon session.

There is currently one force who have no formal educational requirement and a ongoing recruitment cycle due to lack of applicants - the only stipulated  'requirement' is that you speak a second language fluently and the second is that you have resided within one of the 'boroughs' for 3 years

[GingerCat]

43 minutes ago, Westward said:

As for the topic...

No the police are not underfunded nor are they understaffed but over the last 30 or so years they've taken on assorted extra responsibilities and rearranged their priorities. Most of these changes are entirely without reference to or request from the public whom they are supposed to serve.

If you ask a modern, degree qualified, fast tracked chief officer with little or no experience at the sharp end of policing what his/her main priority is are they will say "public safety". I mention this simply to avoid any mistaken idea that the police are primarily there for the maintenance of law and order.

To be topical, in 1970 I attended the Bath Music Festival held near Shepton Mallet. ( Incidentally, a certain local farmer, Michael Eavis, gatecrashed the event and that's where he got the idea for the Glastonbury Festival). At the 1970 festival, despite 100,000+ visitors there was just one police car with 2 officers helping to minimise traffic problems and generally enjoying the atmosphere. Since there was no crime or violence the officers had a very pleasant 3 days.

The policing overkill at public events and demos is not only unnecessary most of the time, but the typically heavy handed policing all too often leads to friction and sometimes violence. The Countryside Alliance march in 2002 being a prime example. Even worse is the totally illegal move they call "Kettling" where they herd people into a cul-de-sac and prevent them from leaving.

This country would be a better place to live if the police concentrated on doing the job most of the public want them to do - which is after all the job they were created to do.

p.s. Don't get me started on cyclists!!!

The problem is lots of other government agencies haven't got any resources either so they pass the duty of care to police. Call the mental health crisis line and I bet it's a cop you see at the door and not a mental health worker. Same for a collapse in the street - not an ambulance that will be there first as they havent got any either so pass it to the police who are duty bound to attend.

Public order from 50 years ago is not really comparable is it. After all 4 people planned the battle of Waterloo back in the day but I think irag used a few more. How far do you want to go back? 

The face of policing had changed, the remit is vast, they are understaffed as the back room cuts have forced front line officers to fill those roles as the funding has been cut.  The public demand the figures those roles generate so the police are accountable and the press can pull them apart for shoddy figures and how it used to be better. So they have to be filled.

This creates stress on the workers and they go sick as less staff are doing more work with less resources. The cycle repeats. 

If you think you can do it better please show the way. 

[Dibble]

I was taught that the definition of an Arrest was something  along the lines of "preventing a person from going where they have a legal right to go". Ketteling looks like an Arrest to me whether you are being held in a cell or on Oxford Circus.

I'm mainly bothered because I hate being stopped by the security guard everytime I leave Currys/PC World so he can check my receipt. I know I could go elsewhere but not when I run out of printer ink at 16:00 on a Tuesday.

[mered]

3 hours ago, GingerCat said:

You can't stop giving though, that's the problem. Its unlawful to take any industrial action. So the option is to leave. Bearing in mind you earn more in Tesco stacking shelves at night than you do as a cop for the first 3 years it's hardly surprising the turn over is so great. I know of 2 who have resigned last week alone. 

 

[Fuddster]

Cheer up Gingercat.

 

Edited July 1, 2019 by Fuddster

[lakeside1000]

We live in a very rural area in Norfolk, and in the main I have no axe to grind with cyclists, I was once one myself about 60 years ago, my original post was the deplorable waste of money and police time playing nursemaid to only a small group of road racers, who dont pay road tax, dont legally require insurance  and seem to have a very aggressive stance when it comes to other motorists trying to pass them , sometimes 4 abreast on narrow single track back lanes, or even busy main roads, 2 hours after witnessing the road race we were on our way home along the A129  from Sprowston to Wroxham, we came up behind dozens of cyclist's out for a sunday ride, they completely ignored the heavy traffic and continued to ride 2, 3 and even 4 abreast without even checking traffic waiting behind them to pass, my wife became so incensed by their disregard for us I was forced to turn off and take a much longer route home to avoid them, no pleasant day out for us, - do we need to say it- single file, stay over on the left, watch traffic coming from behind, acknowledge us when we move well over to pass them so not causing them any anxiety , we all would like to enjoy our days out especially on the picturesque back lanes .  room for everyone Im sure !!!!!

[Westward]

6 hours ago, Dibble said:

I was taught that the definition of an Arrest was something  along the lines of "preventing a person from going where they have a legal right to go".

Maybe, but the arresting officer(s) have to have reason to suspect the person of breaking the law. They also have to state to the arrestees why they're being arrested and what their rights are. Other than when there's an emergency or when guarding against threats the police have no right to prevent members of the public from going about their lawful business.

[arjimlad]

National road championships will need some policing to close roads for a short while. 

 

Road tax eh? not been such a thing since 1937. I pay oodles of tax  - council, income, VAT, 2 x VED. Should a cyclist pay tax when a Prius driver does not ? It is an emissions duty based on emissions.

 

This diagram may explain why groups of cyclists ride 2 or 3 abreast to make it easier for drivers to overtake. String out in single file and you can guarantee that someone will try to overtake two or three of you then run out of road barging back into the group. 

 

 

[twenty]

The diagram explains things well, but the problem I encounter most (especially at this time of the year), are the cyclists in country lanes,

Most of these lanes are barely 3-4 metres wide, and unfortunately in my experience most cyclists are loath to give way, even when they reach a designated passing place.

There is no chance of allowing 1.5metres clearance even if a passing opportunity arises, and frustration starts when you are held up for any length of time, especially when another car joins behind you and tailgates, thinking he/she could do better at passing.

Most farmers however, do pull in to let you pass