mick miller Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 https://community.rspb.org.uk/ourwork/skydancer/b/skydancer/posts/satellite-tagged-hen-harrier-rannoch-killed-by-illegal-trap-on-perthshire-grouse-moor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 Unforgivable behaviour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) How do these RSPB people find all these dead Raptors, in thousands of acres of Grouse moor? Do they know where the spring traps are laid? Do they check them regularly.......these "finds" happen too often to be coincidence! Surely any professional gamekeeper will check his traps at least once a day? And get to the traps before anyone else found/checked them? Especially if he was trapping something he shouldn't!........it doesn't add up for me? Especially at this time, when there is currently a concerted effort by protectionists, to get driven Grouse shooting banned! It was around seven months between the date the transmitter allegedly showed the bird stopped moving and the alleged date the decomposed bird was found......so would a gamekeeper not have checked the trap in seven months? If the bird was decomposed would it be difficult to identify a cause of death..........it is not beyond the realms of possibility someone from this "raptor monitoring group" placed the trap on the birds leg when it was found (wherever that was??) Edited July 2, 2019 by panoma1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobba Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 Appalling behaviour. The culprit is unlikely to be found. Police are appealing for witnesses. Quite laughable. They should just give it a crime Number then they can wash their hands of it like they do with most crimes. It is illegal to place fenn traps in the open but clearly people still do. Why can't they just pass a law that makes it a criminal offence to sell, buy, manufacture or own fenn traps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedward Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 If in doubt, ban it! - solve the world’s problems at a stroke. Fenn traps used legally are efficient and cost effective, just enforce current legislation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted July 2, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 I'm in two minds on this. Yes, there is a clear agenda, but it's impossible to condone the actions of a few if indeed the allegation is true. I use Fenn traps to catch rats around the house regularly, so banning them would be a massive overreaction, the majority of people use them perfectly legally. 38 minutes ago, panoma1 said: How do these RSPB people find all these dead Raptors, in thousands of acres of Grouse moor? Fitted with transmitters, in this instance it stopped transmitting in 2017 but resumed in 2018 when the battery sprung back into life? It all appears a little odd to say the least, if only for the state of decay within the time period. Anything left dead around here for that length of time is usually just bone and feather spread around, almost unidentifiable. But, I'm no expert in forensics, so location/ environment may have played a part in the state of preservation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted July 2, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 Rather than deliberate persecution, could this not have simply been the sad result of bad trap management combined with bad fortune? The trap may have been set legitimately elsewhere, baited but not sufficiently covered to prevent non-target species access. The bird goes to take the bait, gets caught and flies off carrying the trap to die elsewhere? The majority of traps are set so that they can be checked regularly. What would be the merit in deliberately setting out to snare a wild, protected bird, knowing that they are likely to be tagged and monitored, in a random location? If the aim was to trap and kill deliberately, would it not have made more sense to monitor the trap and dispose of the carcass immediately, rather than leave it to be found on a hill? Many questions before jumping to the obvious conclusion, despite how well that conclusion may or may not fit any existing agendas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjpainter Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, mick miller said: Rather than deliberate persecution, could this not have simply been the sad result of bad trap management combined with bad fortune? The trap may have been set legitimately elsewhere, baited but not sufficiently covered to prevent non-target species access. The bird goes to take the bait, gets caught and flies off carrying the trap to die elsewhere? The majority of traps are set so that they can be checked regularly. What would be the merit in deliberately setting out to snare a wild, protected bird, knowing that they are likely to be tagged and monitored, in a random location? If the aim was to trap and kill deliberately, would it not have made more sense to monitor the trap and dispose of the carcass immediately, rather than leave it to be found on a hill? Many questions before jumping to the obvious conclusion, despite how well that conclusion may or may not fit any existing agendas. That's possible, ish. but then someone would have checked the trap and disposed of it. If you're doing something illegal, however, you don't keep going back to the scene of a potential crime. If it's a concerted effort to target raptors, then they're targeting any raptor, not tagged ones, The vast majority of raptors - peregrines, buzzards, kites, sparrowhawks, eagles harriers etc etc aren't going to be tagged so there's no real reason to advertise a strangely remote trap to anyone watching. On the subject of batteries and why it mysteriously woke up. It stopped working in November and perked up again in May. That is perfectly reasonable. These things are solar charged and they need regular solar access to keep charged. If the thing stays in one place, in a position where it's not completely accessible to the sun - and through the winter months - it's not surprising that it could only gain enough regular light by May when the days are longer. Edited July 2, 2019 by chrisjpainter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Down South Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 If this was a deliberate act of persecution then it is indefensible, if a culprit/s are found then they deserve what they get. However, as already stated, it’s rather odd that these casualties invariably seem to be uncovered by those with an anti shooting agenda! As with missing Adam & Charlie the golden eagles (wild birds with names, too Disney for me) that disappeared in April, no bodies found, being monitored by protectionists. Why is the news full of reports now? They all accuse criminal activities aligned to grouse shooting. Could it not be criminal activities aligned to protectionist organisations? Surely not, they are all beyond reproach! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDog Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 The RSPB doing what it does best, issuing fake news to suit it’s agenda. Had this been a true story don’t you think that the Estate and any ‘keepers would have been named by now. As for Eagles previously reported as being persecuted, weren’t they found far out to sea and the post mortem results showed that they died from starvation? Hen harriers are beautiful birds, but like Sparrow hawks and Goshawks they can be very destructive in a sensitive environment. However there can never be an excuse for killing them whilst that option remains outside the law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
243deer Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 2 things make me suspicious of this. 1. If there was enough solar power on the 10th November to power the tracker and enough briefly in January - it makes no sense at all that a further power up would not happen until May, surely it would happen far earlier, at the latest March? 2. If I was a representative of the RSPB and I found the scene pictured I would immediately call the police and request that their forensics team attempt to isolate the DNA of whoever set the trap - they appear to have deliberately aided and abetted the 'crime' for their own publicity purposes by destroying this potential evidence rather than by attempting to have the 'crime' fully and properly investigated and potentially solved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 According to the banner on the J. Vine show ‘ two eagles are found dead on land owned for grouse shooting....Chris Packham calls the police’. So there we have it; whatever the facts, the one sided story is now out there in the public domain. How I wish we had a platform such as he; we could do with one of our organisations building a media centre or something to represent our side of the story. 🤓 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yellow Bear Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, Scully said: According to the banner on the J. Vine show ‘ two eagles are found dead on land owned for grouse shooting....Chris Packham calls the police’. So there we have it; whatever the facts, the one sided story is now out there in the public domain. How I wish we had a platform such as he; we could do with one of our organisations building a media centre or something to represent our side of the story. 🤓 Sadly they could all build "massive media centres" but they would be of little use when said media organisation(s) have their own agenda which is totally anti shooting/country sports totally ignores them in favour of their own "expert"! No calling the organisations will change that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 3 minutes ago, Yellow Bear said: Sadly they could all build "massive media centres" but they would be of little use when said media organisation(s) have their own agenda which is totally anti shooting/country sports totally ignores them in favour of their own "expert"! No calling the organisations will change that. Ah well. Massive waste of members money then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 incredibly stupid thing to do.. antis will be rubbing their hands with glee. if the shooting orgs dont show and promote the positives of shooting and moorland management re conservation then its over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatureBoy Posted July 2, 2019 Report Share Posted July 2, 2019 All very convenient! Yet again and same time of year! Harriers, eagles, exposed traps, grouse moors, dodgy evidence! But no prosecutions! Maximum supposed conservationist celeb exposure! Just like the crows on the gate, death threats and dodgy knobs in the post! When it suits them for publicity! Then nothing!!! All very convenient alleged crimes to suit there bigger agenda! Class war, politics, envy, money and infighting once again put ahead of real conservation!!! Maybe we should all turn up to hen harrier day 19 an have our say! NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted July 3, 2019 Report Share Posted July 3, 2019 On 02/07/2019 at 11:01, chrisjpainter said: That's possible, ish. but then someone would have checked the trap and disposed of it. If you're doing something illegal, however, you don't keep going back to the scene of a potential crime. If it's a concerted effort to target raptors, then they're targeting any raptor, not tagged ones, The vast majority of raptors - peregrines, buzzards, kites, sparrowhawks, eagles harriers etc etc aren't going to be tagged so there's no real reason to advertise a strangely remote trap to anyone watching. On the subject of batteries and why it mysteriously woke up. It stopped working in November and perked up again in May. That is perfectly reasonable. These things are solar charged and they need regular solar access to keep charged. If the thing stays in one place, in a position where it's not completely accessible to the sun - and through the winter months - it's not surprising that it could only gain enough regular light by May when the days are longer. There were some very bright sunny days up there this winter..... You know what they say....." A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth gets out of bed!"... Like most Packham claims, at best it,s a wild exaggeration, at worst a downright lie! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjpainter Posted July 3, 2019 Report Share Posted July 3, 2019 51 minutes ago, pinfireman said: There were some very bright sunny days up there this winter..... You know what they say....." A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth gets out of bed!"... Like most Packham claims, at best it,s a wild exaggeration, at worst a downright lie! No, at best (from his point) he's right. At worst it's a down right lie. You cannot prove either way. Your argument will boil down to what you choose to believe - or not to believe. The batteries, once they're drained need more than just the odd sunny day. they need consistent period to build up juice. and for the charging panel to have good access to that sunlight, which can't be guaranteed on a dead bird. it might stop in a good position, it might not - and either are possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted July 3, 2019 Report Share Posted July 3, 2019 6 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said: No, at best (from his point) he's right. At worst it's a down right lie. You cannot prove either way. Your argument will boil down to what you choose to believe - or not to believe. The batteries, once they're drained need more than just the odd sunny day. they need consistent period to build up juice. and for the charging panel to have good access to that sunlight, which can't be guaranteed on a dead bird. it might stop in a good position, it might not - and either are possible. When I flew a Harris hawk, his tracker unit did not need that much of a charge, maybe things have changed recently? As for Packham, I take all his claims as untruths. I can remember when he claimed to have a raptor that had been shot, but when he was asked by one of our shooting organisations to send it for an independent post-mortem, he ducked out..............if he has a bird that has been dead for a few months, decompostion and the ravages of animals and insects will mean that there is NO credible evidence left! Easy to place in an old, unused trap (and he will have access to these, via his "followers") and then make a spurious claim! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuartyboy Posted July 3, 2019 Report Share Posted July 3, 2019 Another claim of a marsh barrier being shot and wounded. This time in Sculthorpe Estate, Norfolk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NatureBoy Posted July 3, 2019 Report Share Posted July 3, 2019 Reported on the BBC news a dog walker saw it flapping about on edge of marsh. It wasn't even recovered or examined! No evidence it was shot at all! more convenient lies and publicity to suit there agenda! The 3 of them from WJ will be attending and talking at Hen Harrier Day 19. NB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted July 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 I agree with this simple point. Unless and until the monitoring of wild birds (specifically in this case birds of prey) is undertaken by an independent, government appointed body, free from agenda (that rules out NE, RSPB & WJ) the claims will be disputed and subject to bias at best and downright lies and propaganda at worst. It's true about a lie being half way round the world before the truth has it pants on though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 On 02/07/2019 at 20:41, islandgun said: incredibly stupid thing to do.. antis will be rubbing their hands with glee. if the shooting orgs dont show and promote the positives of shooting and moorland management re conservation then its over On 03/07/2019 at 00:35, NatureBoy said: All very convenient! Yet again and same time of year! Harriers, eagles, exposed traps, grouse moors, dodgy evidence! But no prosecutions! Maximum supposed conservationist celeb exposure! Just like the crows on the gate, death threats and dodgy knobs in the post! When it suits them for publicity! Then nothing!!! All very convenient alleged crimes to suit there bigger agenda! Class war, politics, envy, money and infighting once again put ahead of real conservation!!! Maybe we should all turn up to hen harrier day 19 an have our say! NB It wouldn't even be difficult, just look at the moors they've stopped the shooting on and compare it with a working moor. Yep the findings are always near the start of the grouse season, funny how that occurs 🤔🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisjpainter Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 11 hours ago, pinfireman said: When I flew a Harris hawk, his tracker unit did not need that much of a charge, maybe things have changed recently? As for Packham, I take all his claims as untruths. I can remember when he claimed to have a raptor that had been shot, but when he was asked by one of our shooting organisations to send it for an independent post-mortem, he ducked out..............if he has a bird that has been dead for a few months, decompostion and the ravages of animals and insects will mean that there is NO credible evidence left! Easy to place in an old, unused trap (and he will have access to these, via his "followers") and then make a spurious claim! A nice irony there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
islandgun Posted July 4, 2019 Report Share Posted July 4, 2019 17 minutes ago, Mice! said: It wouldn't even be difficult, just look at the moors they've stopped the shooting on and compare it with a working moor. Yep the findings are always near the start of the grouse season, funny how that occurs 🤔🤔 Do you have a link for managed moor, comparisons please.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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