Brexit - merged threads

[oowee]

26 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

 

It could have happened in any local authority area (Labour, Tory, or SNP in Scotland).  As I pointed out there were a number of factors that came together, adding cladding to an old building with only one staircase, policy not to evacuate, contractors using materials not suitable to multi story buildings .......... many factors - and no single 'buck stopping' place.  Like many accidents, multiple hazardous circumstances all came together to result in a tragic accident.  You could have changed any one of the several factors underlined above - and the tragedy would have been avoided or at least made much less severe.  None of these relate to 'devastating austerity under the Tories'.

Blaming it on 'devastating austerity under the Tories' is simply not true.

I don't doubt it for a moment but I do question the policy approach that puts building control in private hands.

[Savhmr]

No JohnfrontheUK, but it's part of the picture because the cladding itself, never mind the design deficiencies of the buildings, didn't pass muster.  The Fire service report was pretty damning. Point taken though, money is tight everywhere for all authorities.  Lets park it there as clearly there's many aspects involved but the Tory handling of the economy generally has cut back far too hard in many critical areas. Their response to Grendfell I think fell short too, and that's a personal opinion which doesn't need any further justification. I think we disagree on the responsibility issue.  I still believe that the buck must stop somewhere and in this case, the organisation signing the cheques have responsibility under law to ensure that proper construction, design and management checks, especially risk assessing fitness for purpose on things like the cladding, should have been undertaken and recommendations made up the chain if that proved unsuitable.  This was the view of the Fire Service...their involvement at an earlier stage may have saved more lives.  Lessons have to be learned, not just lip service given. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Savhmr

[Gordon R]

So both Labour and Tory Councils are equally culpable. When councils talk about cuts, it doesn't seem to apply to expenses, trips abroad, etc.

[JohnfromUK]

37 minutes ago, oowee said:

I don't doubt it for a moment but I do question the policy approach that puts building control in private hands.

It was in private hands in Kensington and Chelsea ......... but I doubt it was in all of the other boroughs and local authorities where that type (and similar) of cladding has been used.  I have to say that here where I live in the countryside, since building control has been outsourced, it has been MUCH easier to get a building inspector to visit quickly to inspect the stages of building works.

 

28 minutes ago, Savhmr said:

Lets park it there as clearly there's many aspects involved but the Tory handling of the economy generally has cut back far too hard in many critical areas.

Happy to park it there.  We will have to 'agree to disagree' on cutbacks because my view is that they were essential to get the public borrowing under control.  In some areas I don't think they have gone far enough ........ but that's another story!

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

It was in private hands in Kensington and Chelsea ......... but I doubt it was in all of the other boroughs and local authorities where that type (and similar) of cladding has been used.  I have to say that here where I live in the countryside, since building control has been outsourced, it has been MUCH easier to get a building inspector to visit quickly to inspect the stages of building works.

 

Happy to park it there.  We will have to 'agree to disagree' on cutbacks because my view is that they were essential to get the public borrowing under control.  In some areas I don't think they have gone far enough ........ but that's another story!

Its also much easier for the private building inspector to get more of the same work from the same builders if they don't cause a problem with inspection. 

 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

Its also much easier for the private building inspector to get more of the same work from the same builders if they don't cause a problem with inspection. 

 

I (or my builder) didn't get to choose the building inspector - they are allocated by the council.  You get a letter saying your building control for this project will be XXXX & Co.  Please contact them directly to arrange inspection visits.  Sorry - getting well off Brexit topic!

[oowee]

Maybe so but it's easy to pick your own. I was also offered the option but the LA ticket is worth more. 

[pinfireman]

On 25/05/2019 at 11:47, oowee said:

I would reckon on Raab too as a good choice. Even Gove I reckon would be alright, certainly a worker. 
My guess delivery of brexit policy progress will be as much about consensus building across the party as personal preference for what should happen. 

If you look at the list of MP backers for Raab, they are virtually ALL Remoaners! That says it all !

On 25/05/2019 at 14:01, oldypigeonpopper said:

hello, who is that chap in UKIP made some nasty comments recently, 

Merely quoting the news, I have no liking for either of them!

On 25/05/2019 at 16:55, Retsdon said:

I want Boris as Prime Minister. Not having any financial skin in the game any more other than my state pension I'm happy to concede everything else to the sheer entertainment value of having a complete clown at the helm during the Brexit storm that will be the most fraught and critical period of foreign policy sailing since, probably, the second world war.

But then? When everything goes t*ts up I'll be there with JRM picking through the wreckage for bargains in the markets. The only difference is that I'll at least have the decency to feel a modicum of remorse when I cash in my profits.

My choice too!

[pinfireman]

22 hours ago, tandytommo said:

First thing you've got right in a while  gammon fascist.

People who use stupid, silly remarks like Unicorn, gammon and fascist think they look and sound smart...................think they are cool, and "with it"!  It usually stems from a lack of confidence in using the English language.

[Raja Clavata]

After what Gove did to the education system I really hope he does not win, OK he may have taken Corbyn to the cleaners recently in Parliament but that's not much of an achievement. We are living the nightmare of Gove's incompetence with my 16 y/o son currently about half way through his 25 GCSE exams, ridiculous.

[pinfireman]

2 hours ago, Savhmr said:

Raab is one of the few credible ones in the running imho.  One of the few who stepped down from supporting May in Cabinet when he realised she wouldn't deliver a no deal brexit.  He never changed his mind about supporting her awful deal when others wavered and caved in.  Johnson talked the talk but when put forward last time was like a rabbit caught in the headlights and stepped out of the running.  He's on record as being pro-EU then pro Brexit when things suited him.  Untrustworthy, especially as he's now said that his intention is not a policy of pursuing a "no deal agenda" to appease the remainers in the Tory party.  Leadsome would be better.  As for that slimy toad Gove, he comes across as a treacherous little man and with his Packham and Tony Juniper connections, he won't be a friend to he shooting community.  He can't be trusted as far as you could throw him.  Same goes for Hammond.

I'd far rather see a majority support for Brexit party candidates and see some migration from the Tories over to them.  We need the two party system broken up.  Labour is just the marxist party now and the Tories are New Labour.  They have been since Cameron who modelled himself on Bliar.  The Brexit Party are the new conservatives.  We also need to get away to the devastating austerity under the Tories.  Grendfell was as a direct result of their penny pinching where it mattered not to.

Grenfell was down to the local authority, which happened to be Tory. However, there are lots more tower blocks in the UK with the same cladding, and many of them are in Labour controlled councils.....As for austerity, recent Treasury figures show the deficit that Labour ran up, is now under control, and austerity is coming to an end. I,m NOT a Tory, but cannot see the point in sticking all the blame on them.

[pinfireman]

23 hours ago, Rewulf said:

😂😂🤣

Seems like I hit a nerve?

2 hours ago, Gordon R said:

The cladding of tower blocks started under the Blair Government. The Conservatives controlled the council which clad Grenfell Tower, but five blocks in Labour-controlled Camden were also clad with a similar material

No party comes out of the Grenfell tragedy with any credit.

That,s true! All the northern tower blocks are in Labour controlled areas.

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, pinfireman said:

Seems like I hit a nerve?

That,s true! All the northern tower blocks are in Labour controlled areas.

? and your point is? There are more tower blocks in the North? Labour areas are generally more working class and so more likely to live in a tower block? People in the North like cladding? 

 

 

[pinfireman]

2 hours ago, Savhmr said:

The point was that it was a Tory authority who saw it through.  The buck has to stop somewhere.  I agree though that Labour are also culpable.  Point is generally that there are areas where cuts have been made where they should not have been made and austerity at local council level is affected by central government funding.

But they cannot have funds that government cannot give them! Austerity was the only answer to the huge debts that Labour left us in 2010. If I had my way, we would have scrapped the entire Foreign Aid budget, in order to reduce the deficit  sooner....and scrap HS2.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Just now, oowee said:

? and your point is? There are more tower blocks in the North? Labour areas are generally more working class and so more likely to live in a tower block? People in the North like cladding? 

Loving some of the answers!

[pinfireman]

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

? and your point is? There are more tower blocks in the North? Labour areas are generally more working class and so more likely to live in a tower block? People in the North like cladding? 

 

 

No, I was making the point that this is NOT just down to a Tory government, or council!

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Loving some of the answers!

 Trying to work out where the proposition was going. 

Good because other than the poor building regs, (and that is still subject to investigation I think)  not much to do with them. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by oowee

[pinfireman]

and back to Brexit..............looking forward to late night results! 

[oowee]

1 minute ago, pinfireman said:

and back to Brexit..............looking forward to late night results! 

What time do we hear?

 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

All starts at 22:00

I had visions of flat caps, tripe and onions and choosing tut northern cladding!

Edited May 26, 2019 by TIGHTCHOKE
Syntax!

[12gauge82]

10 minutes ago, oowee said:

What time do we hear?

 

Sometime after 10 I believe 

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

All starts at 22:00

I had visions of flat caps, tripe and onions and choosing tut norther cladding!

Beat me 👍

43 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

After what Gove did to the education system I really hope he does not win, OK he may have taken Corbyn to the cleaners recently in Parliament but that's not much of an achievement. We are living the nightmare of Gove's incompetence with my 16 y/o son currently about half way through his 25 GCSE exams, ridiculous.

I agree, personally I can't stand Gove and I think he's another one who will run with the foxs and the hounds. 

[oowee]

21 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

Sometime after 10 I believe 

Beat me 👍

I agree, personally I can't stand Gove and I think he's another one who will run with the foxs and the hounds. 

A mate of mine was with Gove last week saying how livid he is re the whole GL affair. 

Is it true Rabb is anti shooting? 

[12gauge82]

11 minutes ago, oowee said:

A mate of mine was with Gove last week saying how livid he is re the whole GL affair. 

Is it true Rabb is anti shooting? 

Got me there, I don't know Rabbs shooting stance, I'm sure someone will be along to enlighten us soon. 

[Gordon R]

Quote

I had visions of flat caps, tripe and onions and choosing tut northern cladding!

The Burnley Dave Award for class goes to the above.

[TIGHTCHOKE]