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2 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

That's what our remainer MP's/Parliament have been doing from day one! They want to make leaving without a deal impossible, and they will not vote for ANY deal put in front of them..........so the options are A) a permanent state of limbo or B) remain!........Job done!

its not out of the question the people of this country might march on parliament...........

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Just now, ditchman said:

its not out of the question the people of this country might march on parliament...........

They are working on the principle that if they block and stall long enough, the people will not object to, or care about, their treason!

I sincerely hope that when a General Election comes around, voters in constituencies that voted Brexit, remember the MP's and ministers, who have worked against the will of the people and vote accordingly! I will!

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1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

I cant see what the whole point of that was, he was asking whats going to happen, a question no one can truly answer.
He gets a few possible scenarios, with explanations why, doesnt like the answers, says its going to be rubbish and probably wont happen, then flounces off.

Bizarre .

Eh? I both accepted and thanked you for your answer. I certainly didn't 'flounce' anywhere. I'm no expert, so I asked a question of people who express strong opinions in the hope that you actually know what you're on about... you then say it's a question no one can truly answer... In point of fact, you could have said that at first but never mind you've said it now. Thanks again.

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4 minutes ago, Tamus said:

Eh? I both accepted and thanked you for your answer. I certainly didn't 'flounce' anywhere. I'm no expert, so I asked a question of people who express strong opinions in the hope that you actually know what you're on about... you then say it's a question no one can truly answer... In point of fact, you could have said that at first but never mind you've said it now. Thanks again.

6 hours ago, Tamus said:

I've read your post over several times and even drunk a cup of coffee before responding.

I have no reply to offer that won't be inflammatory.

Sorry, but your evident grasp of how the EU is constituted (from the Treaty of Rome onwards) is quite 'interestingly selective'. You seem to be about 'blame'. I'm only asking about the practical matter of what might happen in the event of a No Deal.

Err , sorry , must have missed the bit where you accepted and thanked me.

What exactly did you want to hear ?
That I know exactly whats going to going to happen if we find ourselves with no deal on 1st Nov ?
I dont think theres a person in the world that could predict that, any more than they could predict stock market prices on that day.

But surely you would know that.

If you want to listen to the remain camp, that will tell you categorically that WTO Brexit will be a bad thing, thats fine, but they have no way of knowing either.
If you think its better to just abandon the whole Brexit thing entirely, just in case they are correct, then I can tell you, with a high degree of certainty, that you would be wrong.

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32 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Err , sorry , must have missed the bit where you accepted and thanked me.

What exactly did you want to hear ?
That I know exactly whats going to going to happen if we find ourselves with no deal on 1st Nov ?
I dont think theres a person in the world that could predict that, any more than they could predict stock market prices on that day.

But surely you would know that.

If you want to listen to the remain camp, that will tell you categorically that WTO Brexit will be a bad thing, thats fine, but they have no way of knowing either.
If you think its better to just abandon the whole Brexit thing entirely, just in case they are correct, then I can tell you, with a high degree of certainty, that you would be wrong.

Yup,  you must have missed it. I said I took the opinion of this forum to be that we'd go to WTO regs on a No Deal outcome. And I said thank you for that answer. Not that I'm aware we've even started towards the implementation of WTO regulations yet, but I have read much about how tariffs should be applied in that event. 

I hoped to hear what people expect to be the order of things from Nov 1st... i.e. What will Brexit actually be, the day after we finally do it? …  Apparently you believe no one can say. Maybe that means there might not be the adoption of WTO rules. So, is there anything more for me to discuss here? I think not. My confusion remains.

Incidentally, I never said I think it would be better to abandon Brexit. Frankly, I can't even imagine how it could be 'abandoned' now. So much has changed, it's not like we can just reset and forget it ever happened. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, panoma1 said:

They are working on the principle that if they block and stall long enough, the people will not object to, or care about, their treason!

I sincerely hope that when a General Election comes around, voters in constituencies that voted Brexit, remember the MP's and ministers, who have worked against the will of the people and vote accordingly! I will!

 

Farage is quietly waiting in the wings..............his job is being done for him.......

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5 minutes ago, Tamus said:

incidentally, I never said I think it would be better to abandon Brexit. Frankly, I can't even imagine how it could be 'abandoned' now. So much has changed, it's not like we can just reset and forget it ever happened. 

One thing we can definitely agree on.

As most people who can accept this should know, a deal acceptable to both us and the EU should, indeed could have been achievable .
Thats why I keep going back to the mechanics (what you referred to as blame) of the EU project.
If you keep thinking of the bloc as being some kind of reasonable, beneficial partner, who wants to cheerily wish us bon chance , as we leave, then thats part of the reason you may be struggling to understand the whys and wherefores of where we are, and indeed, why there is really no chance of a deal that is remotely beneficial to us.

There probably never was.

The EU is a machine, that seeks to grind down individual nations that resist its integration.
Look at what they are doing to Switzerland for example, next will be Poland ,Italy and Hungary, the rest of the Eastern European countries, including Ukraine will be ushered in through the back door , whether they qualify or not.
The UK leaving is a major spanner in the works , that simply cant be allowed to happen.
If it were a small country trying to leave, they would stand no chance whatsoever.

What you have to try and filter out, is the noise of the so called benefits.
Free trade for example, isnt free, we pay towards the wages of 50,000 people to make that happen, its a completely unnecessary expense.
It could easily be handled in country, saving billions.
CAP is just our money, passing through Brussels coffers and back to our farmers, but it also finds its way to other countries farmers, to subsidise them undercutting OUR farmers.
Environmental and H and  S ? We lead the world in these , long before the EU existed , but to listen to them , you would think they invented it

When you stand back and look at it, do we really need it, do you not see the dangers of becoming integrated into an unelected dictatorship ?
Boring old question, if we werent already a member, would we join, knowing what we know ?

The resistance to leaving begs the very statement you made ' its not like we can reset and forget it ever happened'
But people within our political class think just that, and to hell with what the people think.

Thats why we need to leave ASAP , with a no deal preferably, and put a stop to this banana republic politics.

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5 hours ago, Tamus said:

I hoped to hear what people expect to be the order of things from Nov 1st... i.e. What will Brexit actually be, the day after we finally do it? …  Apparently you believe no one can say. Maybe that means there might not be the adoption of WTO rules. So, is there anything more for me to discuss here? I think not. My confusion remains.

I reckon it's a bit of crystal ball gazing at the moment as if a no deal is imminent both sides might try to agree some 'emergency level' contingencies that, whilst they might break WTO rules, will be expedient to keep things moving initially and avoid immediate job losses, business closures etc.

Assuming it happens at some point where will the short term profitable trades be? 

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2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Does anyone seriously believe we will leave the EU on 31st October?

If we dont , you need to ask the very important question of why ?

Whatever 'type' of Brexit we voted for, we voted that we we no longer wanted to be part of the bloc.
If that wish is not carried out, someone needs to explain why.

Its highly unlikely we will be given another vote on it , at least in the for see able future, as it highly likely the vote will be to leave again.
Another referendum splitting the leave vote is a non starter, a primary school kid can see through that deception.

 

Another extension is plain ridiculous, and solves nothing.

 

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2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Does anyone seriously believe we will leave the EU on 31st October?

Unless the UK requests and is granted (not at all a certainty) a further extension, leaving on 31st October is the default outcome. And the EU has been working on its preparation.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/brexit/brexit-preparedness/preparedness-notices_en

Edited by Retsdon
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15 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

If that wish is not carried out, someone needs to explain why.

Who?

Teresa May can claim she tried (whether she actually tried hard is a bit more dubious, but she can claim she tried) and was blocked by Parliament.

Johnson (assuming he gets elected) will try and leave and again - will be able to claim he tried.

The other parties are not in power - and despite all (including the Labour party who fought an election on carrying through Brexit) having whipped against every attempt to leave

19 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Another referendum splitting the leave vote is a non starter, a primary school kid can see through that deception.

That is what I think Corbyn would do IF he ever came to power (which would almost certainly be as a coalition with firm remainers like LibDems and SNP).  It is also what the LibDems would do.  Doesn't matter a jot that everyone can see through it - they will have "the result" they need to remain.

I hope Johnson manages to carry it through, but Parliament will try their utmost to block it ......... and quite possibly succeed.  Who explains that?

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1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

Who?

Teresa May can claim she tried (whether she actually tried hard is a bit more dubious, but she can claim she tried) and was blocked by Parliament.

Johnson (assuming he gets elected) will try and leave and again - will be able to claim he tried.

The other parties are not in power - and despite all (including the Labour party who fought an election on carrying through Brexit) having whipped against every attempt to leave

The game of pass the buck needs to stop somewhere.
Theyve had a good run at it, but it needs to end now.

 

3 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

That is what I think Corbyn would do IF he ever came to power (which would almost certainly be as a coalition with firm remainers like LibDems and SNP).  It is also what the LibDems would do.  Doesn't matter a jot that everyone can see through it - they will have "the result" they need to remain.

Not happening, the pollsters can spin it how they like.
The remain platform is toxic, thats why there wont be an election, or another referendum.

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1 minute ago, Rewulf said:

The game of pass the buck needs to stop somewhere.
Theyve had a good run at it, but it needs to end now.

 

Not happening, the pollsters can spin it how they like.
The remain platform is toxic, thats why there wont be an election, or another referendum.

You may be right - but I am firmly of the opinion that Johnson wants to leave; whether he can get that across the line without it being blocked by a 'remain' Parliament whose business agenda/managed is decided by a 'remain' speaker is another matter.

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1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

You may be right - but I am firmly of the opinion that Johnson wants to leave; whether he can get that across the line without it being blocked by a 'remain' Parliament whose business agenda/managed is decided by a 'remain' speaker is another matter.

Agreed, but at least he has the will, something sadly lacking before.

All he needs is the way.

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Not sure if this has been posted so apologies if it's a repeat:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49008826

The objectiveness of the BBC has been questioned but there are some interesting points about who knew/what and some behind the scenes conversations.

Made me feel better that some of my assumptions about cause/effect and back office shenanigans weren't completely off the mark.

You could almost make a TV show about it....

 

Edited by hedge
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Michel Barnier told Nick Robinson for a BBC Panorama special airing tonight that Theresa May “never” threatened to walk away without a deal. He said that the EU wouldn’t be “impressed by such a threat” and that it’s “not useful to use it”. It seems obvious that if Theresa May hadn’t just set out to “impress” the EU side or be “useful” to them, a tougher UK stance would have secured a better dealSELMAYR-BEANS-copy.png?resize=540%2C304&ssl=1

Tonight’s Panorama is proving to be another revealing affair – on Brexit this week rather than the chronic anti-Semitism within the Labour Party. There’s already been the revelation from Barnier that May was never serious about ‘no deal’. Juncker’s “monster” Martin Selmayr had another fascinating nugget on Today…

Nick Robinson reveals that Selmayr made an “extraordinary secret offer” to David Lidington to put Brexit “on ice” for five years to develop a new intra-EU partnership instead. Selmayr then talks about how he floated the idea in a late-night session with UK negotiators: “I think we all agreed in the room but we all are officials and we had to respect the mandate that was given and that was unfortunately to negotiate a divorce.” Hardly surprising that they came back with such a terrible deal given not one of them genuinely believed leaving was a good idea…

Selmayr himself won’t be around for any more late-night negotiating sessions, Libération’s Jean Quatremer has got the fascinating inside scoop on how the “sulphurous” Selmayr has been swiftly defenestrated after trying to hijack the process of picking a new Commission President to get another pliant puppet put in place. Guido somehow suspects it won’t be the last we’ll be seeing of him…

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1 hour ago, martyn2233 said:

Vote for what ?

if you mean brexit what happens when we vote leave again??

If a second vote returned a leave outcome with the specifics defined I really don’t see how anyone could justifiably try to prevent it.

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

If we dont , you need to ask the very important question of why ?

Whatever 'type' of Brexit we voted for, we voted that we we no longer wanted to be part of the bloc.
If that wish is not carried out, someone needs to explain why.

Its highly unlikely we will be given another vote on it , at least in the for see able future, as it highly likely the vote will be to leave again.
Another referendum splitting the leave vote is a non starter, a primary school kid can see through that deception.

 

Another extension is plain ridiculous, and solves nothing.

 

If an impasse on no deal occurs in Parliament, which is likely, then would a public vote between no deal Brexit and Remain be splitting the leave vote in your opinion?

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2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

If an impasse on no deal occurs in Parliament, which is likely, then would a public vote between no deal Brexit and Remain be splitting the leave vote in your opinion?

If there was another vote (and there should not be) - three things need to be taken into consideration.

First - that the leave/remain question has already been answered.  That answer was a 'leave'.  (And I in fact voted remain, but accept the answer)

Second - the May deal has failed three times - and is effectively dead (mainly because of the 'backstop'.)

Third - the choice is leave now (31st October) with 'no deal' - or try and leave later with a 'renegotiated' deal (assuming we can get an extension yet again - and that negotiations can be reopened).

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