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Free Running or Not


macca2017
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I have a 5 month old ESS bitch,  I'm having  a few issues with inconsistent recall and retrieving which led me to approach two different professional gundog trainers, both are well established with good reputations, however the advice given by each of them was totally and utterly conflicting.

Trainer 1 -  Keep her very close to you ,get her on a long training  lead, get her quartering, occasionally calling  her in, if no response give her a tug. Similarly with retrieving, keep the long lead on and use the lead to give her a tug if the retrieve is poor. 

I tried  this and yes it works, but not much fun for the dog or me, my concern is she is not enjoying this and at some point when she is off the lead she will act differently.

Trainer 2, Just let her free run, even if she takes off to the the other end of the field, just walk in the opposite direction, eventually she will come back. Constantly keep walking in the opposite direction and the she will follow me, occasionally giving a recall and retrieve. The idea being she will always be looking for me, gradually getting closer and as she begins to hunt more everything will fall into place.

I tried this and as you would suspect the dog loves it, she does keep coming back  and after a while she does get closer, but most of the time she is too far away from me. I'm concerned I don't have control, maybe it will come right, but if it doesn't will it be even harder to get her hunting close to me.

I'm really unsure which direction to take, I don't want to do the wrong thing and make things worse going forward.

 

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The whole gundog world is like this. 

Heres a good tip, two different people can train a dog in their own way, with totally different methods and both train a half decent dog. 

 

We all do things differently. 

 

Who were the two trainers? 

 

What I would do however, and what trainers I trust have said to me also, is if you blow the recall, and the dog doesn’t recall, you go out to it calmly, walk over, take it by the scruff and walk it back to the point you called it, give it a recall whistle whilst doing it! 

If you let the dog come back after calling 5 times, why would them come back when you do it the first time? 

 

I would however be concerned why the pup doesn’t want to be around you anyway though? It should know your where all the fun happens and have a good bond? 

How far away are you letting the dog go? 

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I wouldn't  like to publicly name the trainers on here.   I guess there are always two ways to skin a cat, but as I said  i just don't want to do the wrong thing. 

Shes really strange, around the house and garden she is very clingy, never from your side, however outside she seems more independent where the environment seems more interesting than me, although I've tried to make things fun for her.

Sometimes she will turn on the whistle and keep quite close, other times she ignore me and goes 15 to 20 meters before she turns (specially when there are butterflies to chase). I've tried to make things fun so I've not yet chased her down and dragged her back.  I'm aware shes still very young and don't want training to become a negative thing.

I'm just wary about what the second trainer told me, (don't call her back, just say nothing and walk in the opposite direction), am I making a rod for my own back?

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I'm a long way from being an expert ... but a couple of things to think about.

1) Keep the training sessions short

2) I've used 'hiding' to good effect when my pups have strayed a little ... drop down into a dyke or behind a tree etc. so that. Never let them panic too much once they've realized you're 'not there', but I've found it keeps then always aware of you and helps a bit.

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If your dog likes tennis balls, take a couple with you, find some grass 3 or 4 inches long cast the dog out and let throw the ball just a few feet pip the dog back and turn the opposite way and repeat. You need to walking in a zig zag pattern and pip the dog just a couple of metres away . Change the tennis ball for a small ball of grass as it will not find it, then occasionally revert back to the tennis ball. Forget retrieving in the open just the odd one in your garden so you have more control. Don't forget it's only 5 months old so 5 minutes 2 or 3 time's a day is sufficient. 

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I always find option 2 the best in the long run - but from day 1 my dog is totally off lead at home and learns to follow me around the house/garden. I may well be wrong but I tend to find that the first thing on a Dogs mind when on a lead is how to get off it - in a young Dog this seems to become somewhat ingrained and then leaves you with more problems than you started with - get him to follow you like a shadow when he's a puppy and I find the Dog will never stray far from your side. 

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Macca

Your post sounds exactly like the situation I found myself in with my cocker at a similar age.  He was (and remains) loyal and devoted in and around the house and garden (and yes, like you I'm sure, I have always played with him to try and ensure he thinks the sun shines out of me), but get him outside and it was a totally different story. 

In my case what started as a dog who pottered about within 5 feet of me, soon became a dog that would roam around 30 feet away.  At first this was fine as he always came when called, but then he realised there was nothing I could do if he didn't and that was it- suddenly he was running free wherever he wanted.  Then he bumped a hare and chased it the length of a field and that was when my problems really began.

All of this was because as a first time owner of a working spaniel, I didn't appreciate the importance of keeping him close, and getting him to properly focus on me.  I then stupidly compounded matters by trying to deal with the problem myself (albeit by reading countless training books and turning to the internet for guidance), rather than getting specialist advice (and by the time I did the issues were well and truly entrenched).  Thankfully, though, you have already sought advice, so hopefully all will be well.

In my case I've come to realise that the problems probably weren't completely my fault and there are underlying behavioural issues that affect my dog.  However, if I could go back I'd do things totally differently.  Nevertheless, fast forward 1.5 years of constant dedication and he will just about walk to heel both on and off lead, but I have to focus on him 100% at all times and probably always will.  As another poster has suggested, I also keep training sessions very short to stop him boiling over. Sadly, I've come to realise that I'll probably never be able to work him for real, but we've still achieved quite a lot considering how bad things had got, and in the process the trainer I found to work with has become a good friend.

The purpose of this post is not to suggest you have dire times ahead, but just to sound a note of caution, and hopefully inform your decision as to which training approach to take. 

As you've discovered, the world of gundog training is riddled with massive inconsistencies, which can be terribly confusing.  Furthermore, as I've come to realise from spending more time in the gundog world, there's a huge difference between a sticky, soft dog and a bold, confident one (or a complete nutter in my case!), and a very different approach is required for each. 

Good luck!

 

 

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, TDS1 said:

Macca

Your post sounds exactly like the situation I found myself in with my cocker at a similar age.  He was (and remains) loyal and devoted in and around the house and garden (and yes, like you I'm sure, I have always played with him to try and ensure he thinks the sun shines out of me), but get him outside and it was a totally different story. 

In my case what started as a dog who pottered about within 5 feet of me, soon became a dog that would roam around 30 feet away.  At first this was fine as he always came when called, but then he realised there was nothing I could do if he didn't and that was it- suddenly he was running free wherever he wanted.  Then he bumped a hare and chased it the length of a field and that was when my problems really began.

All of this was because as a first time owner of a working spaniel, I didn't appreciate the importance of keeping him close, and getting him to properly focus on me.  I then stupidly compounded matters by trying to deal with the problem myself (albeit by reading countless training books and turning to the internet for guidance), rather than getting specialist advice (and by the time I did the issues were well and truly entrenched).  Thankfully, though, you have already sought advice, so hopefully all will be well.

In my case I've come to realise that the problems probably weren't completely my fault and there are underlying behavioural issues that affect my dog.  However, if I could go back I'd do things totally differently.  Nevertheless, fast forward 1.5 years of constant dedication and he will just about walk to heel both on and off lead, but I have to focus on him 100% at all times and probably always will.  As another poster has suggested, I also keep training sessions very short to stop him boiling over. Sadly, I've come to realise that I'll probably never be able to work him for real, but we've still achieved quite a lot considering how bad things had got, and in the process the trainer I found to work with has become a good friend.

The purpose of this post is not to suggest you have dire times ahead, but just to sound a note of caution, and hopefully inform your decision as to which training approach to take. 

As you've discovered, the world of gundog training is riddled with massive inconsistencies, which can be terribly confusing.  Furthermore, as I've come to realise from spending more time in the gundog world, there's a huge difference between a sticky, soft dog and a bold, confident one (or a complete nutter in my case!), and a very different approach is required for each. 

Good luck!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for being  open and honest about your situation and thanks to the others who have commented also.  I'm really nervous about letting her free run at the moment, well certainly not just letting take of into the distance and walking the other way, it just seems like a disaster waiting to happen. 

 This week as suggested I've kept the sessions really short, I have kept her on a 6ft training lead, but let the lead trail and if shes gone too far and hasn't responded to the recall I've chased her down and got her back but not been to hard on her, just made sure she knows its not acceptable. There are lots of insects around to chase at the moment which hasn't helped.  I've run around with her making daft noises and occasionally bringing a ball or dummy out trying to keep her focused on me more. I have seen some improvement over the last couple of days, so my plan is to continue with this and hopefully keep her on track.

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I don't know if it's applicable, but when my lab pup is off lead, I /always/ make a HUGE fuss when she comes back to me, wether it's called, or not. Don't let it pass as 'normal' -- from what I understand, YOU must be such a treat to be around that they want to be with you. So big fuss, cuddle, scruff etc are in order really. *even if you wanted to strangle her a minute ago because she had disappeared* as soon as you see her, change tone of voice, re-become the super-dad to be around.

The other things I do when 'free running' is NOT let her free run per se, but let her run around /at my direction/ -- ie /I/ provide the fun hunting bits, send her into a bush, toss the ball into the long grass and so on, I don't just walk around with her hunting on her own... otherwise why would she need me in the first place?

 

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Just to add that Buze's comment above is probably the key and shows how easily advice can be misunderstood.  When gundog trainers talk about free running, in reality they don't mean that at all.  What they are actually referring to are exercises off leash that the dog thinks are a fun game when its running free, but in fact are completely controlled by the handler.  They also are typically conducted within a matter of meters of the handler, thereby keeping the dog very close.  As the dog grows older the complexity and distances involved increase, but to start with everything is simple, close and short to minimise the risk of the dog going wrong and to ensure it is focussed on the handler.

Looking back, I can't understand how I didn't realise this- it seems so obvious now (albeit after spending the best part of a year in the company of several experienced gundog trainers)- in my case I did all of the above around the house and in the garden (hence why he did and still does worship the ground I walk on in those locations), but when we went out for 'a walk' I treated it as an opportunity to give the dog some 'free time.'  To be clear, I never let him just run completely free and we did do various exercises, but I didn't apply the same level of focus as I did around the house/garden as I thought he needed a break- huge mistake (incidentally, when practising retrieving exercises in the field I always made a big fuss of him (and as per my initial post, to start with he always came back straight away...), but the problem was that I'd let him roam free in the first place and without proper direction).

That's another thing I didn't realise- I assumed things learned in one context would apply elsewhere- they don't.  What happened was the dog learned to act in one way around the house/garden, but quickly realised he could get away with a lot more elsewhere, and once he realised that he quickly became uncontrollable.  I should have been absolutely consistent at all times and whatever the location.

Sorry to turn this back to me, but hopefully it will help to ensure you don't make the same mistakes I did.

 

 

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So you have a 5Mth old Ess that's let's say wasnt out and about until 12wks old so lets say that's 8 wks out and about who is inconsistent with recalling and retrieve.....

sorry,but at that age what do you want, it's being a puppy,, lay of training stick to games and let it grow up a bit you've got it for 10yrs+ its barely past walking and your trying to get it to run so to speak.....

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9 minutes ago, millrace said:

So you have a 5Mth old Ess that's let's say wasnt out and about until 12wks old so lets say that's 8 wks out and about who is inconsistent with recalling and retrieve.....

sorry,but at that age what do you want, it's being a puppy,, lay of training stick to games and let it grow up a bit you've got it for 10yrs+ its barely past walking and your trying to get it to run so to speak.....

Exactly that. Let the poor thing be a puppy for a while yet. It is a dog not a tool.

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22 hours ago, buze said:

 

The other things I do when 'free running' is NOT let her free run per se, but let her run around /at my direction/ -- ie /I/ provide the fun hunting bits, send her into a bush, toss the ball into the long grass and so on, I don't just walk around with her hunting on her own... otherwise why would she need me in the first place?

 

100% THIS!!!

BE their entertainment, don’t force them to find their own to exercise their brains!

Edited by bigbird
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