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Hen Harrier Suffers Savage Brutality


HAYBURN
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I stay in this area and unfortunately, most of what is reported here are facts.

There are 2 large estates and the gamekeepers are instructed to "deal with an issue".  Methods used have been illegal and one of those responsible escaped prosecution due to lazy and incompetent police involved. 

There may be other landowners involved but for as much as I do not agree with Packham and the likes, there is most definately an issue in this particular area 

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1 hour ago, bobthedug said:

I stay in this area and unfortunately, most of what is reported here are facts.

There are 2 large estates and the gamekeepers are instructed to "deal with an issue".  Methods used have been illegal and one of those responsible escaped prosecution due to lazy and incompetent police involved. 

There may be other landowners involved but for as much as I do not agree with Packham and the likes, there is most definately an issue in this particular area 

No offence but how do you all know this?....have you heard this with your own ears? and have you witnessed any resultant illegal raptor persecution with your own eyes? If someone has been found guilty in a court of law, fine! If not, here in the UK, everyone is innocent until proven guilty!.....as for the "one of those responsible" you refer to as "escaping Prosecution"....what qualifies you to decide who was "responsible"............and as for the one allegedly "responsible"........do you have inside information as to why he was not prosecuted? Or is that just conjecture too?

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48 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

No offence but how do you all know this?....have you heard this with your own ears? and have you witnessed any resultant illegal raptor persecution with your own eyes? If someone has been found guilty in a court of law, fine! If not, here in the UK, everyone is innocent until proven guilty!.....as for the "one of those responsible" you refer to as "escaping Prosecution"....what qualifies you to decide who was "responsible"............and as for the one allegedly "responsible"........do you have inside information as to why he was not prosecuted? Or is that just conjecture too?

Fair points you have raised. My background is that I'm a somewhat recently retired police officer and have been involved in shooting in some form or other for over 5 decades and for almost 20 years have stayed in the area referred to and also worked there.

I am friends with 2 local vets who are also shooters and a full time falconer, again a shooter. Between my job, hobby and helping out friends, I have indeed seen it first hand several times. Several species of raptor shot, poisioned or trapped.

I am in no way an "anti" or attempting to defend CP or groups such as WJ, but these offences do occur.

With regards to  the reference made to "escaping prosecution" , that is indeed only my opinion. Based on overwhelming evidence , which due to a technicality was never brought to court.

Again, bearing in mind that a person is indeed innocent until found guilty, my comments are indeed conjecture but made with a fair degree of knowledge of the specific incident I was referring to.

I'm sure a google search will throw up a much more recent incident in this area where a goshawk ( i think) was shot by an estate worker in full view of witnesses. 

Having witnesses who are prepared to give a statement or evidence can be problematic if not only their livelihood, but their home and that of their family would be lost if they were to be dismissed..

 

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The antis/protectionists such as Packham, Avery et al would have the public believe that raptor persecution is commonplace, because it suits their agenda!....I do not believe it is! I am not naive enough to believe it doesn't happen, but I honestly believe when it happens, it is isolated to a few estates and a few individuals.......These idiots should either stop now or when identified, be prosecuted to the full extent of the law......they do massive disservice to the reputation of shooting!

That said, I believe we play into the hands of the anti shooting lobby, and a biased media, by accepting without evidence and repeating all their spurious allegations.

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8 hours ago, spurs 14 said:

Why put this on here , don’t give him air time , again a one sided arguement with  no evidence just his views but the public watching this will believe it !!! 

I am getting pretty fed up with the packam bashing 

Its like school yard ****. 

Know thy enemy and all that, but we all know he's a **** *** so why do I need to confirm it again

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The alternative to ignoring him is what? He won't engage in any discussion with anyone who knows the subject. He isn't bright enough. Whenever he is proved wrong, he just moves on to his next "scoop". He appears to have no memory or conscience.

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19 minutes ago, stumfelter said:

I'm somewhat surprised by the "ignore him he'll go away" and "it's all lies anyway" attitudes on here. The swell of public opinion against us is growing and if grouse shooting falls by the wayside it won't be a big leap to ban all game shooting.

Well I personally ain't ignoring him in the hope "he'll go away" but It's a waste of breath commenting on here, because it has no effect! He won't go away!

And it may not be "all lies" but I believe the majority of his allegations are calculated and deliberately designed to mislead the public in order to pursue an extremist political/protectionist/anti agenda!

We as individuals can't discredit his agenda alone....that is a job for our representative organisations.......the way we can be effective individually, is by joining these organisations and backing them, when they need our backing.....not just sitting at a keyboard wringing our hands and criticising our representative organisations.....they may not be perfect...........but they're all we've got!

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On 16/07/2019 at 00:04, bobthedug said:

Fair points you have raised. My background is that I'm a somewhat recently retired police officer and have been involved in shooting in some form or other for over 5 decades and for almost 20 years have stayed in the area referred to and also worked there.

I am friends with 2 local vets who are also shooters and a full time falconer, again a shooter. Between my job, hobby and helping out friends, I have indeed seen it first hand several times. Several species of raptor shot, poisioned or trapped.

I am in no way an "anti" or attempting to defend CP or groups such as WJ, but these offences do occur.

With regards to  the reference made to "escaping prosecution" , that is indeed only my opinion. Based on overwhelming evidence , which due to a technicality was never brought to court.

Again, bearing in mind that a person is indeed innocent until found guilty, my comments are indeed conjecture but made with a fair degree of knowledge of the specific incident I was referring to.

I'm sure a google search will throw up a much more recent incident in this area where a goshawk ( i think) was shot by an estate worker in full view of witnesses. 

Having witnesses who are prepared to give a statement or evidence can be problematic if not only their livelihood, but their home and that of their family would be lost if they were to be dismissed..

 

A detailed and informative response. Thanks.

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20 hours ago, panoma1 said:

Well I personally ain't ignoring him in the hope "he'll go away" but It's a waste of breath commenting on here, because it has no effect! He won't go away!

And it may not be "all lies" but I believe the majority of his allegations are calculated and deliberately designed to mislead the public in order to pursue an extremist political/protectionist/anti agenda!

We as individuals can't discredit his agenda alone....that is a job for our representative organisations.......the way we can be effective individually, is by joining these organisations and backing them, when they need our backing.....not just sitting at a keyboard wringing our hands and criticising our representative organisations.....they may not be perfect...........but they're all we've got!

Perfect they may not be, but has anyone heard from them because l certainly have not heard from mine.

Same during the GL fiasco not a single piece of information came directly from them.

Oh CA by the way, renewal next year, not a monkeys chance.

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13 minutes ago, Pigeon Shredder. said:

Perfect they may not be, but has anyone heard from them because l certainly have not heard from mine.

Same during the GL fiasco not a single piece of information came directly from them.

Oh CA by the way, renewal next year, not a monkeys chance.

I don't know! But what is the alternative? We all let our membership lapse? Then where will we be?

I am sure they are lobbying and trying to have a positive impact behind the scene, why would they not? Their future is wrapped up in shooting!.......I know the GWCT and BASC together with others, did their bit for shooting in response to the recent NE, GL fiasco!

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