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Extinction Rebellion


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4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Why?  UK fertility is as you rightly say - not a problem.  Population growth (worldwide) IS.

Because your point was suggesting UK control of population through benefits when we do not have a fertility issue in the UK. 

The matter of rising world population is a concern. 

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7 minutes ago, oowee said:

Because your point was suggesting UK control of population through benefits when we do not have a fertility issue in the UK. 

OK - I do think that rising population has been driven by benefits - and still is driven by benefits - because benefits are one of the main reasons people try to come to the UK (both legally and illegally).  In addition, whilst the birthrate may be falling - there are still many people who have children to 'farm the system' (both for money and housing) and that is wrong for both the children and the system.

We in the UK are seen (rightly) as a 'soft touch' for living off state benefits.  It is widely broadcast that IF you can get into the UK, you will be looked after with free housing, free health care, generous cash handouts - and easy living.  It isn't all true by any means, but that is the impression many trying to get to this country have.

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6 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

OK - I do think that rising population has been driven by benefits - and still is driven by benefits - because benefits are one of the main reasons people try to come to the UK (both legally and illegally).  In addition, whilst the birthrate may be falling - there are still many people who have children to 'farm the system' (both for money and housing) and that is wrong for both the children and the system.

We in the UK are seen (rightly) as a 'soft touch' for living off state benefits.  It is widely broadcast that IF you can get into the UK, you will be looked after with free housing, free health care, generous cash handouts - and easy living.  It isn't all true by any means, but that is the impression many trying to get to this country have.

It's certainly the impression that we get.

My concern on the external view is that as we move forward with Brexit and open up immigration to countries like India the situation will get far worse. The wealth / poverty divide is so great that even at the margins the UK will be an attractive option. Factor in that in many third world countries birth control is a factor of resources and we are creating a much bigger immigration problem than a few 100 thousand Europeans, many of whom will at some point return to Europe. 

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1 hour ago, henry d said:

Get rid of the old and lame? 

"Would all members of the forum over state pension age please go to the gun cabinet and blow their brains out." 

Well it has to start somewhere and what better way than old timer's that have the equipment and expertise to do a good job of it

Perhaps mention that to your FEO next time you see them ?

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1 minute ago, oowee said:

My concern on the external view is that as we move forward with Brexit and open up immigration to countries like India the situation will get far worse. The wealth / poverty divide is so great that even at the margins the UK will be an attractive option. Factor in that in many third world countries birth control is a factor of resources and we are creating a much bigger immigration problem than a few 100 thousand Europeans, many of whom will at some point return to Europe.

I do not see the immigration from Europe as being anything other than a (probably quite minor) part of the problem.  Overall the growing population is the problem - globally.

In the UK - growing population is a problem, but the problem is mainly one of space, resources, housing.

Global population growth will put additional pressures on the planet, notably water, food, leading to deforestation - and adding to the CO2 issues.

In the UK - the population growth also has problems, but they are different in detail in that we can provide adequate water, food etc., but housing is a problem, as is overall 'congestion' (housing, transport, locally grown food production) - and huge pressures on health, care, caused by ageing population (which is a rather different issue).  For example - in my local town there has been a huge amount of house building - and another many thousands of houses recently authorised/under planning application - but massive travel problems already exist if there is any minor trigger (accident, roadworks, weather related causes), long medical waiting lists, - and more and more houses are at risk of flooding (and do get flooded) due to building on the flood plane.  I recently had over 4 hours moving less than 50 yards due to a 2 car accident and the resultant wide ranging congestion.  This is becoming a regular occurance.

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1 minute ago, oowee said:

If we continue to measure prosperity by consumption (GDP, assets etc) then we will continue to need more and more people to fulfill that growth.

Not necessarily true; GDP can increase with a stable (or even declining) population due to increased productivity - which will lead to higher earnings per head, and so higher consumption (which I agree isn't necessarily a good thing).

Most people value a higher 'standard of living' which relates to a whole raft of statistics like individual disposable wealth, better housing, health services, etc etc.  These can come about from productivity - which in this day and age is not nearly as closely tied to labour (small 'L') due to modern production and also the type of work/service.

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8 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Not necessarily true; GDP can increase with a stable (or even declining) population due to increased productivity - which will lead to higher earnings per head, and so higher consumption (which I agree isn't necessarily a good thing).

Most people value a higher 'standard of living' which relates to a whole raft of statistics like individual disposable wealth, better housing, health services, etc etc.  These can come about from productivity - which in this day and age is not nearly as closely tied to labour (small 'L') due to modern production and also the type of work/service.

True but the underlying measure is still one of consumption. You produce more to get more. Your success is measured by how much you have. How much better off would we be if we started to live within the means of our finite resources?

Maybe we as a race are incapable of taking such a step, and will only be managed by our environment. Either way at some point we need to find the resources to relocate? 

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11 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Not necessarily true; GDP can increase with a stable (or even declining) population due to increased productivity - which will lead to higher earnings per head, and so higher consumption (which I agree isn't necessarily a good thing).

Most people value a higher 'standard of living' which relates to a whole raft of statistics like individual disposable wealth, better housing, health services, etc etc.  These can come about from productivity - which in this day and age is not nearly as closely tied to labour (small 'L') due to modern production and also the type of work/service.

Also not necessarily true, our standard of living increases have primarily come from the export of inflation in material and labour costs to developing countries.

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3 hours ago, oowee said:

Is it the case that the population growth is a symptom of the way that we value living. If we continue to measure prosperity by consumption (GDP, assets etc) then we will continue to need more and more people to fulfill that growth. 

In many (most?) parts of the world a big family is your only security, they will look after you when you get old, chip in with money if you need medical care and defend you against hostile neighbours. And I am not talking about third world countries exclusively either. 

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When a sister of the OH was on VSO in Africa, she found it perplexing that the local males were actively encouraged as part of their culture to father as many children as possible, with as many wives as possible, yet the Catholic Church which was prevalent in the area discouraged the use of contraception. 🙂

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1 minute ago, Scully said:

When a sister of the OH was on VSO in Africa, she found it perplexing that the local males were actively encouraged as part of their culture to father as many children as possible, with as many wives as possible, yet the Catholic Church which was prevalent in the area discouraged the use of contraception. 🙂

That sound like a healthy combination. 😞  

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2 hours ago, Scully said:

When a sister of the OH was on VSO in Africa, she found it perplexing that the local males were actively encouraged as part of their culture to father as many children as possible, with as many wives as possible, yet the Catholic Church which was prevalent in the area discouraged the use of contraception. 🙂

The problems start when all those children grow up and there isn't enough good land to support them all. The population of Africa is predicted to quadruple by the end of this century and unless there is some sort of miracle in agriculture most will be heading across the Med in inflatable boats because there wont be many other options for them.

Edited by Vince Green
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44 minutes ago, henry d said:

"All" those children don't grow up though.

Thats just the circle of life, the will of the gods, whatever you want to call it.

Not everyone gets the life they want, the help they need.
But some people could make their lives a lot easier by planning better, rather than acting on impulse, or taking what others have built, rather than building something for themselves ?

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My (big) issue with these activists and the socialist and liberal side of our society is the plain fact there are just far too many humans on this planet - our numbers have gone from 3.8bn to 7.6bn in 40yrs. We are so so greedy ie we do not hatch out and live in a hole we need houses, cars, roads, factories, huge quantities of food, hospitals etc etc - the list is endless. And we push animals and insects to extinction. This is a huge truth that never gets mentioned. Sadly the worst of our collective problems seems to be with world leaders and governments. When will we work together to control birth rates and share resources - never I suspect.

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