Arrested without written permission?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Gordon Bennett, is this still rolling along?

[Breastman]

5 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Would the police officer not require a reason, permission or a warrant to enter private land? Such as a reason to believe a crime has/was being committed?.........if the officer also decided to arrest the shooter, because although he/she had permission, he/she couldn't provide written permission, would he (the plod) not leave himself open to legal action for false arrest?

Seeing a person in a field with a gun is all the probable cause an officer needs to investigate a potential crime and gain access to the land and/or buildings without a warrant to make the investigation.

 

When was the last time you heard of a police officer being taken to court, let alone found guilty of a false arrest? And thats like saying if someone gets pulled over for the suspicion of drink driving and being found under the limit could take the traffic cop to court?!

[Rewulf]

6 minutes ago, Breastman said:

Seeing a person in a field with a gun is all the probable cause an officer needs to investigate a potential crime and gain access to the land and/or buildings without a warrant to make the investigation.

Really ?

Are you a police officer past or present ?
What are you basing the 'potential crime ' on ?

[panoma1]

6 minutes ago, Breastman said:

Seeing a person in a field with a gun is all the probable cause an officer needs to investigate a potential crime and gain access to the land and/or buildings without a warrant to make the investigation.

 

When was the last time you heard of a police officer being taken to court, let alone found guilty of a false arrest?

According to the individual circumstances, could the reasonableness of probable cause access not be disputed? Surely that would be up to a court to decide!..........as would a claim of false arrest! It would be up to the individual (and their legal people) whether to pursue........or not!

[stuartyboy]

1 hour ago, Breastman said:

COULD you be arrested, yes, given the right circumstances, under Sections 19 or 20 of the Firearms Act 1968.

 

Are you likely to be arrested if you do have permission to be there, whether written or not, no. Are you likely to be CHARGED with anything if you're there lawfully, almost definitely not.

 

If you got a police officer with a cob on, or you fail the 'attitude test' yes you could be arrested for armed tresspass if you cannot prove that you have authority to be on private land with a firearm. How do you prove you have permission to shoot on the land, you have a written document stating so. However this would usually take quite some provoaction of the officer for this to be the result, unless as said you were dealing with a right jobsworth.

 

A simple, "I haven't got a letter with me but i can get them on the phone if you like" would likely suffice 99% of the time.

 

This would obviously not be relevant/necessary to an organised game shoot/clay pigeon ground as they provide exemptions under different parts of the act/other acts.

Spot on

[Breastman]

27 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Really ?

Are you a police officer past or present ?
What are you basing the 'potential crime ' on ?

I'm not a police officer but do deal with lots of legislation in my day to day job, but are we honestly debating whether a police officer has the right to walk over a field to ask someone with a gun what they're doing, really?? I don't come on here very often but has a Freeman-of-the-land society cropped up or what??

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, Breastman said:

but are we honestly debating whether a police officer has the right to walk over a field to ask someone with a gun what they're doing, really??

Thats not what you said.

 

40 minutes ago, Breastman said:

Seeing a person in a field with a gun is all the probable cause an officer needs to investigate a potential crime and gain access to the land and/or buildings without a warrant to make the investigation.

So man in a field with a gun, police officer thinks - Gun= possible crime being committed ? Or is that not what you meant ?
It just seems a strange connection that you believe a person conducting a perfectly legal practice with a firearm should draw the attention of the police and be investigated for possible wrong doing, when no crime has been reported.
Obviously man with gun in city centre , yes.
But bloke in field in countryside ?

I know you said it gives them 'probable cause to investigate' but why would they feel the need unless someone had reported suspicious behaviour or trespass ?

[Breastman]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Thats not what you said.

 

So man in a field with a gun, police officer thinks - Gun= possible crime being committed ? Or is that not what you meant ?
It just seems a strange connection that you believe a person conducting a perfectly legal practice with a firearm should draw the attention of the police and be investigated for possible wrong doing, when no crime has been reported.
Obviously man with gun in city centre , yes.
But bloke in field in countryside ?

I know you said it gives them 'probable cause to investigate' but why would they feel the need unless someone had reported suspicious behaviour or trespass ?

Oh god its turned into one of them threads....

 

A person in possession of a firearm has the potential to be committing a raft of offences which would allow an officer to investigate/access the land, which is what was actually being discussed in the first quote of mine you have used. Yes a person in a field is far likely to have a reasonable excuse/not be committing an offence than a person in a street, but that again is irrelevant and not what was being discussed. You seem to have jumped on this as if i'm personally accusing people out shooting of doing something wrong?? I don't know why a hypothetical police officer would or would not go into a field to question someone they either saw in passing or were called out to by a member of the public, i just know that there are potential offences a person could be committing that the police have the power to investigate, part of which would include access private land.

 

The OP asked if it was correct that you can be arrested for not having a written permission on you when out shooting and i've given my 2p on that, short and long version. There is no need for an endless argument-seeking semantics battle that some people on here seem to thrive on. Guess i'll give it another couple of months before my next visit

 

[Dougy]

Ringing the landowner at 01.00 in the morning just to get plod to listen to a megga grumpy sleepy landowner tel him that you have permission will go down really well. 

I have had 4 x armed response approach me for shooting rabbits in the corner of a field, apparently the guy next to the field was unhappy (ex fire arms) he reported that someone had been shot. Anyway, the short version, they the field and went back to speak to the chap that complained. )probably had tea and cakes) 

 

Its all about attitude, be pleasant and you should be treated the same. 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

So man in a field with a gun, police officer thinks - Gun= possible crime being committed ? Or is that not what you meant

Or, you could have just answered 'no' to that question, rather than getting all excited about it. 

Have a nice holiday 😉

[David BASC]

Dear All,

Having written permission with you is a very good idea, and BASC produce a small booklet of permission slips that are FOC, if you want one just email me you postal address and I will get one out to you. david.ilsley@basc.org.uk

There have been cases where pigeon shooters have been confronted by armed police, even helicopters! Often this is based on a call from a 'concerned member of the public' who says they have seen someone with a gun, or sometimes they may even claim they were threated by someone with a gun. The police have to respond.

 

[andrewluke]

12 minutes ago, David BASC said:

Dear All,

Having written permission with you is a very good idea, and BASC produce a small booklet of permission slips that are FOC, if you want one just email me you postal address and I will get one out to you. david.ilsley@basc.org.uk

There have been cases where pigeon shooters have been confronted by armed police, even helicopters! Often this is based on a call from a 'concerned member of the public' who says they have seen someone with a gun, or sometimes they may even claim they were threated by someone with a gun. The police have to respond.

 

having a written permission slip on you would not stop the above happening

[David BASC]

No it would not, of course, but if you are stopped simply because someone has seen 'a person with a gun' then having written permission should help solve the situation quickly and easily

[Bobba]

22 minutes ago, David BASC said:

Dear All,

Having written permission with you is a very good idea, and BASC produce a small booklet of permission slips that are FOC, if you want one just email me you postal address and I will get one out to you. david.ilsley@basc.org.uk

There have been cases where pigeon shooters have been confronted by armed police, even helicopters! Often this is based on a call from a 'concerned member of the public' who says they have seen someone with a gun, or sometimes they may even claim they were threated by someone with a gun. The police have to respond.

 

I have had the experience of a "meeting" with four armed police officers and a helicopter. A member of the public had made a false report but they wouldn't say who. A well conducted exchange after which they said the way I transported my shotgun was A1 and my approach to the police was exemplary. A cool head and politeness goes a long way.

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, David BASC said:

No it would not, of course, but if you are stopped simply because someone has seen 'a person with a gun' then having written permission should help solve the situation quickly and easily

Of course, but they also have access via mobile technology, once they know your name, to identify you, your FAC/SGC details  (including photograph) , and any permissions attached to you.

Weve had the thread before , many times about FAC holders who only have verbal permissions for the land they shoot on, and why they dont 'need' a written permission.
Thats not the argument however , and its fairly obvious that you cannot be arrested for not having written permission on your person.

Attitude toward the police is never a good idea however, but unless someone has reported you for either, something they believe to be illegal, or just the fact 'theres a man with a gun'  If you have done nothing wrong, and have every right to be there , you shouldnt feel, or be made to feel guilty or uncomfortable about owning and using firearms.

 

[bluesj]

26 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Of course, but they also have access via mobile technology, once they know your name, to identify you, your FAC/SGC details  (including photograph) , and any permissions attached to you.

Weve had the thread before , many times about FAC holders who only have verbal permissions for the land they shoot on, and why they dont 'need' a written permission.
Thats not the argument however , and its fairly obvious that you cannot be arrested for not having written permission on your person.

Attitude toward the police is never a good idea however, but unless someone has reported you for either, something they believe to be illegal, or just the fact 'theres a man with a gun'  If you have done nothing wrong, and have every right to be there , you shouldnt feel, or be made to feel guilty or uncomfortable about owning and using firearms.

 

Or for not having written permission at all. I have not got written permission for 99% of the places that I use a firearm.

As you say the way that you deal with any encounter with the police is likely to have more bearing on the out come that having a bit of paper to say you have permission after all anyone could write out a fake permission.

[Rewulf]

34 minutes ago, bluesj said:

anyone could write out a fake permission.

Exactly.

If they are going to check it anyway, whats the point in the first place.
And if they are going to take the piece of paper at face value ? Well ...

[Harnser]

This thread is getting very,very silly . 

Harnser

[bluesj]

5 minutes ago, Harnser said:

This thread is getting very,very silly . 

Harnser

How so? May be expanded a little more than was needed to answer the OP's question.

[Scully]

Just dropped in to see what had led to three pages! 😃

If anyone wants to prevent being arrested for not having written permission on their person, fear not; drop me a PM and I’ll write you one! 

Who's gonna know? 😃

[Penelope]

14 hours ago, Scully said:

Just dropped in to see what had led to three pages! 😃

If anyone wants to prevent being arrested for not having written permission on their person, fear not; drop me a PM and I’ll write you one! 

Who's gonna know? 😃

How much?

Used to shoot a cracking bit of fresh marsh on the Essex coast; would love to go back there, but it's now owned by the Essex Wildlife Trust. Not a problem for you, is it? Their logo is freely available if you wanted to to make it look all professional, like.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

[Scully]

19 minutes ago, Penelope said:

How much?

Used to shoot a cracking bit of fresh marsh on the Essex coast; would love to go back there, but it's now owned by the Essex Wildlife Trust. Not a problem for you, is it? Their logo is freely available if you wanted to to make it look all professional, like.

😃👍

[Dougy]

I can just see this,

 

A chap sitting out in the middle of a hedge line 1/2 way into a field, sitting behind a camo net on his swivel seat with a load of plastic decoys sitting on plastic sticks. Flask and butties perched on his gun bag next to a slab of cartridges. 

And maybe if he's been lucky a few dead pigeons in the hide too.  

PC plod gets a call out to some shooting in a field, 

 

Ooo!!!  bit of exitment lads, and a scramble to get to the panda car sitting empty in the yard. 

Plod get to the location and can see that it's Pigeoncontroler having a bad day. 

Now that's when the education bit (Or common sense degree) should kick in. 

A friendly chat like "how many you had so far ?" 

 

Thats it, back into the canteen tell the lads how many pigeons in the bag and how nice his shotgun was, and that's it. 

What on earth is cracking on with this type of police response, i thought they were supposed to be educated about sporting shooters.  

[GingerCat]

16 hours ago, Dougy said:

I can just see this,

 

A chap sitting out in the middle of a hedge line 1/2 way into a field, sitting behind a camo net on his swivel seat with a load of plastic decoys sitting on plastic sticks. Flask and butties perched on his gun bag next to a slab of cartridges. 

And maybe if he's been lucky a few dead pigeons in the hide too.  

PC plod gets a call out to some shooting in a field, 

 

Ooo!!!  bit of exitment lads, and a scramble to get to the panda car sitting empty in the yard. 

Plod get to the location and can see that it's Pigeoncontroler having a bad day. 

Now that's when the education bit (Or common sense degree) should kick in. 

A friendly chat like "how many you had so far ?" 

 

Thats it, back into the canteen tell the lads how many pigeons in the bag and how nice his shotgun was, and that's it. 

What on earth is cracking on with this type of police response, i thought they were supposed to be educated about sporting shooters.  

Ok, so here's my last call to "someone in with a gun shooting at caravans"

Me "ok I'll take a look as I've just finished with the domestic"

Pop down to the caravan site to find 20 or so holiday makers raging about being shot at and how long it took me to get there  and all about how they were going to do nasty things to him had I been any later (I was 15 miles away so thought I made good time).

Peer over into the field to see a pigeon shooter, miles from the flightline and he is indeed dropping shot into the site. Appearing to shoot them as they turn with the wind but god knows why he was there.  I know has dropping shot into the site as some hit me. Didn't hurt but it's still a trespass and could be dangerous as there's lots of toddlers about that could be hurt. 

He was also a rubbish shot. 

I drive over to the field and walk down the side. Shooter emerges and gives me a mouth full about his rights and how I should be doing something better. I politely tell him to wind it in and eventually after 2 minutes of ranting he does. I then explain he is dropping shot on lots of people who want to string him up. I then point out the flightline is 200 yards on the other side of the field and he should move. I then ask his name and all is well as it matched the name of the keeper of the car and he had a sgc when we checked that. 

I walk back up the field to see the farmer waiting. 

Farmer says "everything ok". 

Me "yep he was dropping shot on the caravans not to mention being miles from the flighline of pigeons eating your peas"

Farmer "ah ok" 

We had a 2 min chat about a load of old bs to pass the time and I then continue with my day. 

99.99% of the time this is what happens. Occasionally they don't rant and we have a nice chat. The 00.01% it's poachers and they like to drive about the fields in 4x4's and skip the chat.

Edited August 10, 2019 by GingerCat