TSS shot data

[bishop]

fibre is rubbed down to fit but slides in snug and comfortable.mind they have a 1/8 over powder wad under them also so no gas escaping.

[bishop]

plastic solves the worry of these thick fibre beasts not opening up.im sure its due to them being cut down for the 1oz load to fit  and the petals being too short and thick to open correctly .My only concern with plastic is the risk of them melting but a wad between them and the powder should sort that.Mind this is a muzzle loader so each flight i expect to let off a handful of rounds.And i bought this gun for quality of the shot not quantity of the bag. Stomping up 15 quid for TSS shot for half a dozen loads  that will reach out and kill with  good patterns and incredible energy  is a bargain .Remember that with muzzle loading you have your two shots with your s/s and then you must stop everything you are doing and reload.Its important to  drop birds cleanly if at all possible ,Its great to have shot that will be so efficient in the barrels regardless of the extra cost.Three steel to one TSS cost wise ? Maybe so, but for percussion shooting its worth it i assure you.Im out at 50 yards  with these loads right now --patchy yes,but ill sort this.Im now able to relax,enjoy the dawn and pick my shots knowing that the bird im takings is going to come down  with  a lovely cloud of  smoke and flame.Dropping the geese back on the 2nd was really outstanding.Close birds at 30 yards i grant you but worth 10 birds with a breech loader.By the time the pinks are in ill have a percussion load that drops birds like a sack of wheat at 45-50 yards if i  wanted to. The boring part is making up all these pattern papers!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited September 10, 2019 by bishop

[bruno22rf]

Personally I would try a thicker wad on top of the powder - I'm guessing that you are currently using a 1/8 card wad over the powder? Might be blowing the pattern.

[6.5x55SE]

Bishop have thought about or tried putting a 20 GA plastic Non Toxic wad inside your wad of choice.

Certainly works with TSS 12ga loads. If you'd like a few to try/test I'll post some to you 

[bishop]

1 hour ago, 6.5x55SE said:

Bishop have thought about or tried putting a 20 GA plastic Non Toxic wad inside your wad of choice.

Certainly works with TSS 12ga loads. If you'd like a few to try/test I'll post some to you 

cheers, this is uncharted territory for me with the muzzle loader.

 

http://www.namlhunt.com/mlshotguns5.html#

 

Thsi is well worth a read ref muzle loading.Wad may well be battering into the shot instead of falling away correctly.

Edited September 10, 2019 by bishop
added info

[Continental Shooter]

On the second pattern you can see the was hit the paper on the right hand side. Although this was shot at 20 yds, I would expect the wad to stop before that, but might be a characteristic of the muzzle load gun

[bishop]

http://www.namlhunt.com/mlshotguns4.html

 

 

another page--this lad knows his stuff.

[6.5x55SE]

Just now, bishop said:

http://www.namlhunt.com/mlshotguns4.html

 

 

another page--this lad knows his stuff.

Very interesting reading.

Don't hesitate to Post and PM if you decide to try the 20ga wads route . Hope you sort a load asap and post a Wright up of a successful goose flight

[figgy]

After looking at the link and watching videos of reloading in the states I wish we had same access to reloading supplies and gear over here. 

[Continental Shooter]

I just had a thought: what about duplexing?

when duplexing, the advise is to sub a % of steel pellets and replace with the exact weight of TSS ...and some spacers to fill in the gap left by the reduced wad column.

Now, if you have a steel load that works for you and you want to add the extra punch, you could gradually replace steel with TSS until you get to a position where you're happy with the pattern at -say- 40 yds.

I would perhaps try with 1oz steel load #2 - #B and substituting 1/8 oz with TSS so, your load should look like: powder, overpowder card, wad with spacers, 1/8 TSS + 7/8 Steel

1oz of TSS  #7 counts 183 pellets; #B steel counts 85 pellets 

So, if you use the above matrix  you will have 22 TSS pellets and  74 steel pellets giving you a total of 96 pellets which is a good 10% + increase in pellets count compared to steel only (if you were to use steel #1 you wold get 89 pellets but a good 10 yds less in terms of steel efficiency; with #2 you would get 108 pellets but probably not good enough for geese over 30 yds).

Anyway, the increase on pellets count should give you sufficient coverage up to 40 yds after which steel will loose efficiency leaving TSS to do the job.

All this is based on geese being the target; for duck steel #2 and TSS #9 1/2 do the job very nicely within the 50 yds mark according to CONSEP tables.

i think it might be worth a shot?

cheers,

 

[widgeon man]

Continental shooter- your missing an important fact... the two different materials at diff size and density will have different flight time and characters...... duplexing is quite simply pants when shooting birds flighting instead of pattern paper. Gamebore tried it with multi shot ITM and steel. Sized differently. It strung out like crazy and was the worst crippling load I have ever tried. If birds are in range steel suitably sized will cleanly kill all day long.....

If-if they are on the ‘edge’ tss could be a solution and will certainly provide a kill......IF the nut behind the butt can put it up front on a goose. If not it’s a waste of time and pricked birds. 

 

Sorry if I’ve jumped your thread Bishop I understand your reasoning with such few shots etc... and being a m/l 👍

[bishop]

Pattern testing today with  a few different loads.I  decided to use the entire bio wad rather than cutting it back  with the TSS . So---70 grains NOT the usual 60 used this time .Thick Over powder wad put on top of charge .I then placed a 20 bore hard packing wad inside the cup once the wad was manipulated and squeezed into the bore.A nice bit of saliva helped it in .Gently pushed down a few inches then tss (one ounce only) placed in barrels with overshot light card wad on top.Pattern was fairly good at 50 yards the first barrel and well--the pic below says it all.Quite happy if i can replicate this more often than not.I have noticed this gun shoots LOW .It did so on 5 different pattern sheets.Incredibly lifelike goose shape is goose sized BTW 30" circle.23 hits to the bird and of course a few more to wings bome/meat if i had drawn them on .Wads were blown god knows where -i found only 3 . i recon they flew sideways into the tide.Very chewed up wads opened right out like a pitbull got hold of them--but bore of gun is fine .I think the 70 grains is helping 10 grains more this time plus entire wad used not a cut down job.The gun shoots low--i know this now.on every pattern the base is heaviest in strikes due to the guns aim point being lower than would have imagined.I aimed(wind pushing me all over the place) at the base of the neck but at 50 yards in a strong wind i struggled to hold the gun true.   

 

 

                                                                                                  Now this load  IF i can do it as a  constant will suffice.Its fiddly getting these fibre cups to fit the 13 bore barrels ,you have to bite em and squeeze em around very firmly but delicate like then rotate them into the muzzle.With no 20 bore hard wad inside the cup you would poke the bottom of the wad out if you tried to push it down.You need the hard wad in place ,then shove it down 6 inches or so then drop the shot,over powder card wad on top then ram it very firm but also quite gently watching out for the hydraulic pressure hiss when you are pushing it home.

 

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by bishop

[Continental Shooter]

1 hour ago, widgeon man said:

Continental shooter- your missing an important fact... the two different materials at diff size and density will have different flight time and characters...... duplexing is quite simply pants when shooting birds flighting instead of pattern paper. Gamebore tried it with multi shot ITM and steel. Sized differently. It strung out like crazy and was the worst crippling load I have ever tried. If birds are in range steel suitably sized will cleanly kill all day long.....

If-if they are on the ‘edge’ tss could be a solution and will certainly provide a kill......IF the nut behind the butt can put it up front on a goose. If not it’s a waste of time and pricked birds. 

 

Sorry if I’ve jumped your thread Bishop I understand your reasoning with such few shots etc... and being a m/l 👍

hey WM,

ITM, depending on density, is quite soft therefore, duplexing with a harder material will cause the ITM to deform resulting in dispersion and cripplers.

TSS and Steel are very hard and there is no deformation.  Extensive tests have been done by US fowlers on the subject; it's not something I've come up with.  They do report incredible results on geese at range for a fraction of a cost of pure TSS; hence the idea.

If you get your TSS off Hawglip (Hal) it will come with extensive data set of both pure and duplex loads which perform quite well in terms of data and on the field.

Also, i humbly disagree with your idea of duplexing: duplexing is regulated by the effect of physics to a greater degreI am sure the results will be poor and discouraging.  But it is used effectively  in practical life for woodcock shooting -where a big spread is required at short distances- (i.e. 60 cm spread at 12 mt), as well as long range target / classic pigeon shooting -where the effect of correct duplexing help the pellets got that extra little further in order to hit targets-.

but hey, no one forces people to load duplex if they do not believe in it; as usual i'm the one that do not believe in magic... so, i duplex  

 

[Continental Shooter]

56 minutes ago, bishop said:

 

 

 

not too bad mate; i think this is a killer

have you tried replicating the load with 65 and 60 grains (no cut down wad)?  it is my understanding that TSS should pattern really tight and there are quite a few clouds of pellets along few voids maybe caused by the pressure being slightly too high?

cheers,

[bishop]

This is with the 70 grains of 777 powder.i may do one more pattern test using  55 grains and once ounce of TSS  with the full wad etc again-see of the lower powder charge draws it in (or out).Mind this is NOT TSS wt18  this is its poor cousin TSS wt 15. heavier than hevishot but lighter than the TSS 18 that is being bantered about  on facebook pages

[Stonepark]

1 hour ago, bishop said:

The gun shoots low--i know this now.on every pattern the base is heaviest in strikes due to the guns aim point being lower than would have imagined.I aimed(wind pushing me all over the place) at the base of the neck but at 50 yards in a strong wind i struggled to hold the gun true.   

 

 

It might be worth adding a cheek rest (Berretta do one) to lift the comb height to centre the pattern when you are mounting.

 

https://www.thesportingstore.co.uk/product/beretta-gel-tek-cheek-protector-comb-raiser-pad/

[motty]

On 09/09/2019 at 14:47, bishop said:

Cylinder  barrels .1 1/4 oz  max payload. Using Black powder as i expect to be very soon i dont know if  steel shot. in a size suitable for humane goose killing at 40 yards would perform too well at 1200fps max ,giving tight enough patterns----but in saying that Motty im going to pattern test a couple of 1 1/4 oz steel loads tomorrow in #1 and #2 to see what  can and cannot be achieved.50 yards with the tss is outstanding--but in reality i wanted 10 yards more than the usual 30 yards advised killing range of these percussions.So i would be over the moon with tight hard hitting 40 yard steel loads.Being mindful of course that if #7 tss is slightly patchy at 50 yards i have no idea what to expect with #1 steel  at 40 yards given the wads may well be the issue here with both TSS and any other hard metal shot i test.The wad to use here is the key.Steel or TSS  will be an economic concern mostly.Its a 13 bore almost and finding a suitable plastic wad to slide into the muzzles without struggling may be  something that takes time.These wads here look ok,but are very very thick bio wads ,so thick you can hardly fold a petal back even when they are slit to the base.They might as i say be the issue ,not opening evenly,if at all.

50 yards  one ounce of TSS 15.0g/cc  #7.i did use pattern paper but tried tis on the way back to the car  as it resembled a goose sized target .I was off with the shot--think the gun shoots low .Might be better with 11/4 oz of tss.But more costly if so.The patch nature of the pattern concerns me.This shot is meant to hold tight up to 60 yards.Its being distorted by something and its not too much powder.60 grains of 777  is   what you would use to replicate the velocity of black powder.You can if you choose use the same volume as black-its tells you this on the bottle,but of course nobody does as there is simply no need .The velocity is there.

.................Boi wads here are very rigid.Need cut back for the 1oz payload .I found one wad with a petal folded back 180 dergees .Its very difficult to fold  these wads petals down compared to plastic.

Yes, I would try steel 1s at 1200fps. I think they would be ok. Also, you may well be better off with hw13 than the 15wt stuff. A fair bit cheaper, for starters.

[bishop]

perhaps aye. more pellets in the ounce too.This was today pattern tested with the full fibre cup wad  with 1oz of tss15 .still 80 or so pellets outside that paper someplace.Not as tight as i had hoped but certainly a dead goose.

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by bishop

[bruno22rf]

How about an 18mm dia carbon fibre tube - on the bay of plenty for pennies (from China) - thinking outside the box here but you could cut it to length and drop it down the barrel after the main wad? Just a thought?

[bishop]

Ach im being fussy m8.Lets be honest, a 50 yard range is outstanding from a cylinder choked percussion 12.Pellets will go clean through the bird i can be sure of that.hellova wallop they have to them.I normally shoot at 30-45 yards anyways.Im  confident ill have a good few pinks this season with the pedersoli.ill keep a look out for the 10 bore percussion version too,would love to grab hold of one of them

[bruno22rf]

TBH - your picture does seem to indicate a very dead Goose.

[Continental Shooter]

Please bear in mind that a pattern is a 2d immage of a 3d moving column of pellets

So, although it gives us a good picture of what would happen at the point of impact, doesn't tell us at which stage each pellet hit the target.

Therefore, it should be used to represent the concentration of pellets within a target not the chances you get to hit that target so, it doesn't really mean  that goose wa sdead as not all pellets might have hit it at the same time (or at all)

From what I can see from the picture there are ~93 pellets in the circle and ~34 outside it giving a count of 127 in the target area; 10z of #7 has 183 pellets therefore, 33% of it are out of the target area.

Although i appreciate the it's the peculiarty of the gun with open chokes and the wad is not ideal; i still think you can get a better - and more consistent-  concentration within the target area so that you can shoot sonsistently within the limitation of your gun.

 

 

[bishop]

To let you understand 777 powder as i have came to over the last few weeks.Its written to drop the standard BP charge by 15% to allow 777 to replicate velocities normally expected from  BP load.A normal 1oz BP load is around  70 grains.using the 15% reduction idea  is optional with 777.they advise you to do this IF you want to replicate a BP load in pressure /velocity--but with TSS you may not want to do this --unless as you suggest the pattern is being blown..I have tried 60 grains at 50 yards and its ok but not impressive as we know.I tried the 70 grains with the full wad and its pretty damned good--but i agree with you ,not what it could be.I may try dropping the charge  back down to say 50 grains 777 with the full wad and the 1oz.It would still have plenty poke  most likely and maybe bring the shot tighter together.who knows! Ill try one more trip out using less powder,fold the petals right out and then back into place so i know they will "give" when fired.and see what i get on the pattern paper.

Edited September 12, 2019 by bishop

[Continental Shooter]

2 hours ago, bishop said:

I may try dropping the charge  back down to say 50 grains 777 with the full wad and the 1oz.It would still have plenty poke  most likely and maybe bring the shot tighter together.who knows!

aye, that's what i meant before, we now know the full petal helps, so, i would try 50-65 gr BP and see which one pattern best; if it is still 70; then so be it.

the other thing is: we know that pressure normally increase is directly proportional to the wad toughness; chances are the very hard fiber wad stiffness contributes to increase pressure and blows pellets around.  The extra height of the wad will help reduce flyers; or maybe a spacer under TSS could help absorbing some of these pressure.

But I would first see how the reduced load performs first

 

[bishop]

Dram (powder)	Grains (powder)	Ounce (shot)
2	55	3/4
2  1/4	62	7/8
2  1/2	68	1
2  3/4	75	1  1/8
3	82	1  1/4
3  1/4	89	1  3/8
3  1/2	96	1  1/2
3  3/4	102	1  5/8
4	109	1  3/4
4  1/4	116	1  7/8
4  1/2	123	2
4  3/4	130	2  1/8
5	137	2  1/4       This chart is typical. Im using 70 grains on this most successful pattern test.i put that down to the whole unmolested wad being used.not the increase in powder.,the lowest i went was 60 of 777.If im replicating the square load id be using the one ounce load-- just 68 grains of black OR 68 times 0.85% to get the equivalent in 777 powder--thats just 57.8 grains!.Less powder more shot is the statement to tighten things up . im  above the square load  with both 60 and certainly 70 grains of 777 , im very optimistic i can tighten things up by dropping it back from 70 or 60 to say---50 grains as mentioned a moment ago.This is 8 grains less than the square load conversion from black to 777 but with TSS its a new ball game and the higher density of the shot may simply need a gentler "push" rather than a heavy shove so to speak.I agree the extra height of the complete fibre wad is helping.the reduction in powder can do nothing but good.velocity is incredible to be honest with 60 or 70 grains.Its not overload, but it is, my experience tells me,--too pokey.It reminds me of firing a baikal record 12 bore cartridge if you remember them??Thats what its like firing off 60 or 70 grains.50 should make the gun behave more like firing a grand prix i hope!!!!

Edited September 12, 2019 by bishop