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3 minutes ago, Dekers said:

NO, we have waited for TM, a confirmed REMAINER to screw up the exit and stay a member!

I was just going to answer the same, no one in power who believed in brexit was given the chance by our government to actually implement brexit, so they can hardly be blamed for the delay and complete mess the country no finds itself. 

If for arguments sake JRM had taken the top job, enacted us leaving and our economy sank I'd say remainers were perfectly right to blame the Brexiteers. 

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Just now, 12gauge82 said:

I'm not projecting anything, you are, I'm saying leavers voted for leave and remainers voted remain knowing full well the consequences. 

I again point out that when we joined in the original referendum, it was to join the common market with 7 other countries of similar standing, it was basically a free trade deal, no one then knew what we had joined or what it would morph into, a 30 year sealing order was put on it under the official secrets act, so if anyone didn't know what they voted on it was when we initially joined. 

There were two options, the country voted leave, to leave the EU means leaving the club and its rules which to any sane person would mean leaving the customs market, the single market, ending free movement of people and stopping the UK payment and EU court supremacy, we were told that before the referendum and the alleged consequences if we did, so it really is that simple. If the government never intended to action a leave outcome they shouldn't of had a referendum, but they did, so they need to action it, to claim that the country didn't know that voting leave would, shock, horror result in us leaving EU membership is ridiculous! 

A clean Brexit! 

What's your version of a clean Brexit?

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9 minutes ago, Mice! said:

we voted to leave Europe, but MPs won't let us.

 

which country had an election maybe last year and there was a big swing to the right? Was it Holland?? It was seen as really dramatic, and it could well be the same here.

I've no idea what this might mean for us but i think it will shake things up, and not in a good way.

dont forget that in Holland when they entered to EU.....it was the desision of their parliament..........it wasnt put to the people as a vote...........

i think im right in saying that ...if im not please correct me..

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Just now, Raja Clavata said:

What's your version of a clean Brexit?

There is of course no such thing, I used that terminology as it is what the media use, to clarify it means leave the EU and is the same as saying, hard brexit, wto brexit and means to not remain, like a soft brexit would be. 

You can't leave a club then start a new one with nearly the exact same rules as the old one and claim we've left, it's nonsense. 

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Just now, 12gauge82 said:

There is of course no such thing, I used that terminology as it is what the media use, to clarify it means leave the EU and is the same as saying, hard brexit, wto brexit and means to not remain, like a soft brexit would be. 

You can't leave a club then start a new one with nearly the exact same rules as the old one and claim we've left, it's nonsense. 

Okay humour me for a minute, just suppose hard Brexit is off the table, what do we do?

FWIW despite voting remain I maintain that a hard Brexit is better than the TM deal which I honestly believe is a compromise that screws both sides...

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8 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

And has it not occurred to you that there may be very valid reasons for that!? I'm still yet to hear a credible reason why it would be in any MPs interest to avoid Brexit on the basis of self interest in the sense of their role in Parliament.

So just to examine your point about leaving Europe - no deal isn't gonna happen, May's deal is not popular, let's face the facts of where we are, the reality we find ourselves in, what are the sensible outcomes here?

If there were valid reasons for us to stay in Europe it would be plastered all-over the side of busses!! 

listening to a lady last night from the ERG who said they voted against Mays deal because it was rubbish, not really brexit and left Ireland annexed.

 

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1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

Okay humour me for a minute, just suppose hard Brexit is off the table, what do we do?

FWIW despite voting remain I maintain that a hard Brexit is better than the TM deal which I honestly believe is a compromise that screws both sides...

I agree with you on Mays deal, I'd actually rather remain than see that. 

If hard Brexit (I.e leave the EU) comes off the table and we can't have a free trade deal (the EU will make that impossible, which to be fair is thier choice) by default will leave the only option on the table of remain. 

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58 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

So, if Remain won how many years breather would Farage et al have given us before they started banging the leave drum again?

I get what you are saying in a pure and simplistic sense but the problem is that the 17.4M people who voted leave don't all agree on the specifics of leave hence the division.

People are sick of the whole thing, it was rotten to the core from the outset and has just got worse.

Despite the current turmoil I still hold the resolve that we, the people of the United Kingdom, are better and know better than that...

Raja................that is what i would like to think........truly i do......

the disconnect twixt the well off and the not well off is massive.............if you have virtually nothing...then you still have ..at least your pride as being British/welsh/scottish/irish.........and what a lot of people subconsiously think is that their heritage is slowly being eroded away....their identity is being watered down by being in this superstate Europe................and if the march and asperations of the EU continue..............they will loose their identity..............

by voting in a far right presence ....they do ...as it will be the only recoarse left to them...and they dont care about the damage it will cause or do.............

we British are a funny race of people..................it takes a hell of a lot to get us going..............but once that happens there will be hell to pay...........

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We joined a COMMON MARKET to bring down a few trade barriers and make it easier for Common Market countries to trade with each other.

We did not join the Federal Republic of Europe where we have to support the vast majority of its members whilst relinquishing control of our Courts, Borders, Military, Currency, Independence, etc etc!

In fairness successive Governments (parties) have got us into this mess, the British Public have said STOP, we don't want this!

 

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35 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Farage conceded on the night of the referendum but vowed to fight on with is leave campaign - which of course was his democratic right.

I wonder how many of the 17.4M people who voted leave work (or worked) in the manufacturing sectors and now realise they effectively voted to make themselves redundant in the process.

What did Farage concede on the night of the referendum? 

I have no idea; the choices were simple enough. I and the entire workforce ( admittedly there was only six of us 🙂) voted to leave despite working in an industry which I was told would be destroyed by a leave outcome. Our two bosses were not amused to say the least. In the intervening two years they have expanded into new premises, taken on two more staff, and have work lasting them into next year. 

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20 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

And that's not my or any remain voters fault but we are all in this together and need to find a way out. Bleating on about he said this, she promised that, leave means leave yada yada yada isn't getting us anywhere.

You may not have voted for this but neither did any remainers, this is not the doing of remainers, this has arisen due to leavers buying the pup they were sold. It's not good, it's not cool, far from it but a number appear to be coming round to the fact that the process is fundamentally flawed and needs resetting.

There you go, bleating on again about it being the leavers fault!

TM is a remainer, she doesn't wat to leave, its a bit like leaving Hitler in charge of the British Army and scratching your head as to why we may lose the war!

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26 minutes ago, 12gauge82 said:

I agree with you on Mays deal, I'd actually rather remain than see that. 

If hard Brexit (I.e leave the EU) comes off the table and we can't have a free trade deal (the EU will make that impossible, which to be fair is thier choice) by default will leave the only option on the table of remain. 

Your candid response is appreciated!

31 minutes ago, Mice! said:

If there were valid reasons for us to stay in Europe it would be plastered all-over the side of busses!! 

listening to a lady last night from the ERG who said they voted against Mays deal because it was rubbish, not really brexit and left Ireland annexed.

 

Not getting your point chap?

27 minutes ago, ditchman said:

Raja................that is what i would like to think........truly i do......

the disconnect twixt the well off and the not well off is massive.............if you have virtually nothing...then you still have ..at least your pride as being British/welsh/scottish/irish.........and what a lot of people subconsiously think is that their heritage is slowly being eroded away....their identity is being watered down by being in this superstate Europe................and if the march and asperations of the EU continue..............they will loose their identity..............

by voting in a far right presence ....they do ...as it will be the only recoarse left to them...and they dont care about the damage it will cause or do.............

we British are a funny race of people..................it takes a hell of a lot to get us going..............but once that happens there will be hell to pay...........

Clearly these concerns are part of the reason that people voted for Brexit in the first place. A funny complicated lot we certainly are!

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20 minutes ago, Scully said:

What did Farage concede on the night of the referendum? 

I have no idea; the choices were simple enough. I and the entire workforce ( admittedly there was only six of us 🙂) voted to leave despite working in an industry which I was told would be destroyed by a leave outcome. Our two bosses were not amused to say the least. In the intervening two years they have expanded into new premises, taken on two more staff, and have work lasting them into next year. 

In the middle of the night as the results came in he conceded defeat but vowed to fight on - I know this happened as I saw it myself live on TV.

Were people really suggesting just the outcome of the vote would lead to job losses, that's a stretch but as it turns out there have been losses influenced by the uncertainty that has ensued.

I guess it's at the other end of the spectrum but I had a meeting with the CEO and SVP of a $2B per year Automotive Tier 1 supplier in Michigan on 12th March and they both said they would not invest further in engineering resources within the UK largely due to Brexit and as such the office exists to support local customers (all of whom are impacted by Brexit uncertainty amidst a highly disruptive period in the industry) and retain a few engineering specialists who are not prepared to relocate. They are my former employer and were looking to rehire me but the location options were Germany or the US, the discussion went downhill from there...

29 minutes ago, Dekers said:

There you go, bleating on again about it being the leavers fault!

TM is a remainer, she doesn't wat to leave, its a bit like leaving Hitler in charge of the British Army and scratching your head as to why we may lose the war!

It's not about apportioning blame, we are all in this together and need to find a way out of it. Ardent Brexiteers who are hell bent on a no deal Brexit need to come round and find a workable compromise to all this or decide that the process is flawed and needs to be restarted.

I maintain however that the TM deal is a compromise that serves nobodies interest other then the conservative party making some kind of incredulous claim that they upheld the will of the people... 

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Perhaps Europe and UK should have surrendured in either of the two world wars and saved all the bloodshed by letting Germany gain rule of the european continent in its third attempt by politricks instead of war this time.

Roll on the far right when this happens because they are about the only one's with a decisive appetite to do anything about it.

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Fair enough;  I didn’t sit through the vote as strangely enough I believed we would vote to remain, as Farage apparently did.

What he and I have in common is that we would both continue the fight through the democratic process ( just as people vote in or out a political party ) what isn’t democratic is trying to thwart, ignore or overturn that process before it has even been implemented.

I think we would have to be extremely naive to believe there would be calls for another referendum if leave had won. 

I can agree uncertainty isn’t helping, but a sister of my OH, who graduated from the London School of Economics and works for some top company in Leeds, representing multi national companies, says no one knows what is going to happen. I have no idea how she voted but she isn’t duly concerned about the outcome. Neither am I; life will go on. No one will die. 

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4 minutes ago, Scully said:

Fair enough;  I didn’t sit through the vote as strangely enough I believed we would vote to remain, as Farage apparently did.

What he and I have in common is that we would both continue the fight through the democratic process ( just as people vote in or out a political party ) what isn’t democratic is trying to thwart, ignore or overturn that process before it has even been implemented.

I think we would have to be extremely naive to believe there would be calls for another referendum if leave had won. 

I can agree uncertainty isn’t helping, but a disorder of my OH, who graduated from the London School of Economics and works for some top company in Leeds, representing multi national companies, says no one knows what is going to happen. I have no idea how she voted but she isn’t duly concerned about the outcome. Neither am I; life will go on. No one will die. 

That is a very fair way of looking at the situation.

It is rather strange that PM Theresa May is getting all of the blame for the **** poor situation.

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51 minutes ago, JRDS said:

246 Pages in and if you go back to Page 1 Post 1 nothing more needed saying!!  What an utterly predictable despicable betrayal this whole charade has been.  Roll on the next GE.

Yes but who is there to replace them!! Surely not Clown Corbyn

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13 minutes ago, Brixsmaid said:

Yes but who is there to replace them!! Surely not Clown Corbyn

He and his cohort should shoulder more than half the blame for the current situation.  They were elected on a support the vote platform and then went only if it is was BRINO.

Only interested in personal and sub party gain and not the good of the country of their voters.

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17 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Don't recall you asking me a question?🤔

How and what am I "WRONG" about?

I did ask a question but never mind.

You wrote "The ballot paper didn't include any "specifics" it was a simple question, remain or leave..... 17.4 million were in the majority and voted leave! No ifs, buts or maybes...."leave means leave"."

So, no specifics but you're arguing that despite being non-specific all 17.4M votes wanted the same unspecific thing. No specifics but then you argue no ifs, buts maybes so unspecific with no caveats, 17.4M united in unspecific bliss.

And then "leave means leave" - I think that phrase is now being morphed to something like "leave with no deal but if that can't happen "leave" in name through the TM deal as that's a better face saving alternative to no Brexit at all" - this is now the slant that JRM seems to be taking.

The 17.4M united argument then falls apart as Leavers here, and elsewhere, have said they'd prefer to remain than accept TMs deal.

This is why you are wrong in your initial assertions...

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2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

in the middle of the night as the results came in he conceded defeat but vowed to fight on - I know this happened as I saw it myself live on TV.

Yes he did, the man has spent nearly half his life trying to get his country out of what he believes is an undemocratic institution.
The bloke has the courage of his convictions.
I dont actually see a problem, if you are a labour supporter, you dont stop supporting labour and its ideals when the tories take power ?

 

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Were people really suggesting just the outcome of the vote would lead to job losses, that's a stretch but as it turns out there have been losses influenced by the uncertainty that has ensued.

Not people, financial institutions, the government , economic 'experts' 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36273448

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/brexit-vote-leaves-uk-on-brink-of-recession-economists-say

2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

It's not about apportioning blame, we are all in this together and need to find a way out of it. Ardent Brexiteers who are hell bent on a no deal Brexit need to come round and find a workable compromise to all this or decide that the process is flawed and needs to be restarted.

Read that back to yourself, what other deals has May ' No deal is better than a bad deal' put forward ?
Shes always said , 'This deal is the only deal' and her buddies in the EU who wrote it for her nod sagely and agree.
Now the tune changes to ' Its my deal or no Brexit'  The EU bods , once again agree, strange that ?

A few people have said it continually,  what do YOU think will happen if they cancel A50 ?
Everyone will shrug and say 'Oh well, never mind' ??

I dont think so.

They need to come up with something, and quickly, otherwise this government will collapse, and who knows where it will go from there ?

If you seriously believe we can just go back to  June 2016 and start again with no repercussions , Im sorry but you have NO chance whatsoever of that.
 

19 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

You wrote "The ballot paper didn't include any "specifics" it was a simple question, remain or leave..... 17.4 million were in the majority and voted leave! No ifs, buts or maybes...."leave means leave"."

So, no specifics but you're arguing that despite being non-specific all 17.4M votes wanted the same unspecific thing. No specifics but then you argue no ifs, buts maybes so unspecific with no caveats, 17.4M united in unspecific bliss.

Thats completely irrelevant now , they wanted something, 3 years later , they got nothing.

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Just now, Rewulf said:

Yes he did, the man has spent nearly half his life trying to get his country out of what he believes is an undemocratic institution.
The bloke has the courage of his convictions.
I dont actually see a problem, if you are a labour supporter, you dont stop supporting labour and its ideals when the tories take power ?

 

Not people, financial institutions, the government , economic 'experts' 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36273448

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/24/brexit-vote-leaves-uk-on-brink-of-recession-economists-say

Read that back to yourself, what other deals has May ' No deal is better than a bad deal' put forward ?
Shes always said , 'This deal is the only deal' and her buddies in the EU who wrote it for her nod sagely and agree.
Now the tune changes to ' Its my deal or no Brexit'  The EU bods , once again agree, strange that ?

A few people have said it continually,  what do YOU think will happen if they cancel A50 ?
Everyone will shrug and say 'Oh well, never mind' ??

I dont think so.

They need to come up with something, and quickly, otherwise this government will collapse, and who knows where it will go from there ?

If you seriously believe we can just go back to  June 2016 and start again with no repercussions , Im sorry but you have NO chance whatsoever of that.
 

I don't have a problem with the Farage thing either, I raised the point to counter this notion that we should not speak up against Brexit until after it's been enacted.

Scaremongering and lies on both sides - we need to move beyond that but even the economist that is pals with JRM said that Brexit will kill UK manufacturing and he likens it to the same thing that happened to the miners and steel workers yet still endorses it. I do wonder how many ardent Brexiteers were outraged by the treatment of the miners and steel workers.

I think we are in general agreement, May is behaving like her life depends on delivering her deal - as I've said for a while I think she will manage to weasel it through eventually.

Again I don't disagree with you but if it comes down to a parliamentary choice between no deal and no Brexit I wouldn't be going large on no deal!

As I keep saying a right proper mess that is all very British unfortunately. 

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