Dave-G Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 14 minutes ago, Retsdon said: I'm genuinely curious. What is it exactly that you want the EU to do/concede that would, in your view, make the separation amicable? Wind their necks in: If they weren't so determined to dominate and rule Europe there'd be no need to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 9 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: Does anyone seriously believe we will leave the EU on 31st October? No, unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 6 minutes ago, Retsdon said: So in the future when new standards are set, we align to their standards or they align to ours? Who knows , maybe we could talk about it and reach a thing called compromise. It depends what it was doesnt it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Christopher Jones Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 On 18/07/2019 at 08:41, Tamus said: Used to be dairy, sheep and grain, but for the last twenty odd years it's been mainly beef cattle and sheep production. Since we voted to leave we can see the world has moved on and the protections the EU gives its members are clearly already ceasing to apply to the UK, witness the new Japan/EU and Mercosur/EU trade deals and of course the Aus/NZ EU trade talks in progress. Far from having the English speaking world beating a path to the door at Westminster (to do a deal), they're all getting into bed with our big neighbours (The EU). As I already said, anything that diminishes 'frictionless' trade with the EU hurts my sector. I anticipate pain, but I've no idea how much or when, or indeed 'if' it will actually all happen. Fear not, we wont be leaving 20 minutes ago, Scully said: No, unfortunately. No,we have too much to loose, to get what we never lost 23 minutes ago, Dave-G said: Wind their necks in: If they weren't so determined to dominate and rule Europe there'd be no need to leave. we were only ever given an advisory vote to placate the tory party members Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Capt Christopher Jones said: we were only ever given an advisory vote to placate the tory party members Hmm, I thought it was just an attempt to 'dilute' Nigel Farage. Edited July 19, 2019 by Dave-G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: Does anyone seriously believe we will leave the EU on 31st October? Not without prorouging Parliament! We have a remainer Parliament that will do anything to block a 'no deal' Brexit, because by blocking a 'no deal' Brexit it takes away the UK's only bargaining chip and ensures the UK will not get an acceptable "deal" out of the EU..............and no deal anyone comes up with, however good, is gonna get voted through Parliament!......As I have said previously, in my opinion they have been doing this from day one! Edited July 19, 2019 by panoma1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 3 hours ago, Retsdon said: Of course it's not a war. I just used the hypothetical example to try and illustrate that while we might desire something, acting on it needs to be balanced against potential negative consequences. There's something else too. Someone up the thread said that when a negotiating fails you walk away, and of course under normal circumstances that's what you do if you can't get your preferred outcome. But 'walking away' really means abandoning the negotiation process to stay with the status quo ante. Nothing changes. 'Walking away' from membership of probably the richest trade bloc on the planet without any idea of where you are going is most certainly not synonymous with staying with the status quo ante. Everything changes. It's Captain Oates stuff. And that's why we're at an impasse. Staying with the status quo, 'walking away' in normal circumstances, means staying in the EU. Captain Oates was dying, and wanted to give his companions a chance to survive by his actions! He knew what he was doing....................a real hero! As for "the richest trade bloc" on the planet...perhaps you have not been keeping up with their status? The EU is failing! Germany and France on brink of recession, Greece a basket case, Portugal too! Italy with massive debts it cannot service....Wow! Who wouldn,t want to be part of that? Whilst the EU Commission sails blithely on, the individual countries are getting very worried! My German friends tell me that there is unease that, when the UK leaves the EU, Germany will have to make up the shortfall in the EU budget, and they do not like that at all! Who else will? Not the rest of the motley crew! 2 hours ago, Capt Christopher Jones said: Fear not, we wont be leaving No,we have too much to loose, to get what we never lost we were only ever given an advisory vote to placate the tory party members Sadly, I fear you are delusional. We will be leaving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Christopher Jones Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, pinfireman said: Captain Oates was dying, and wanted to give his companions a chance to survive by his actions! He knew what he was doing....................a real hero! As for "the richest trade bloc" on the planet...perhaps you have not been keeping up with their status? The EU is failing! Germany and France on brink of recession, Greece a basket case, Portugal too! Italy with massive debts it cannot service....Wow! Who wouldn,t want to be part of that? Whilst the EU Commission sails blithely on, the individual countries are getting very worried! My German friends tell me that there is unease that, when the UK leaves the EU, Germany will have to make up the shortfall in the EU budget, and they do not like that at all! Who else will? Not the rest of the motley crew! Sadly, I fear you are delusional. We will be leaving. says we stay as is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinfireman Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 minute ago, Capt Christopher Jones said: says we stay as is Not even worth a comment! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 3 hours ago, Capt Christopher Jones said: No,we have too much to loose, to get what we never lost In my opinion, by leaving we have everything to gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Christopher Jones Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, Scully said: In my opinion, by leaving we have everything to gain. we must agreed to differ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redial Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 I just hope Boris and his team have something up their sleeves to get us out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 15 minutes ago, redial said: I just hope Boris and his team have something up their sleeves to get us out. Boris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 I can't comprehend why some are so confident that we won't leave. If the Tories don't get us out, they are history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 If Boris doesn't have the clout to override what parliament is trying to achieve thanks to unpatriotic members of his own party the Tories will be burnt toast so stand by for Farage as PM at the next election - regardless if he will be able to turn things around or not. At least all of his party members will be for Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted July 19, 2019 Report Share Posted July 19, 2019 4 hours ago, pinfireman said: As for "the richest trade bloc" on the planet...perhaps you have not been keeping up with their status? Google is your friend..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 As far as I'm concerned the problem is the EU simply won't keep it just as a trading block and are demanding too much financial waste and political dominance to accompany it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Gordon R said: I can't comprehend why some are so confident that we won't leave. If the Tories don't get us out, they are history. Because Parliament has no majority for leaving. The new PM (whichever it is) will face opposition from: All Lib Dems All SNP All Greens The vast majority of Labour (as instructed by the leadership on a full whip) About 10% of rebel Tories (Greive Clarke, Rory Stewart etc.) Various 'independents' such a Soubery & Co The speaker In support will be; About 90% of Tories The DUP A very few Labour rebels (who will defy the whip) That arithmetic means that it is pretty much impossible to get anything passed ......... and though the 'default' is to leave, Parliament is doing it's best to thwart that. As I understand it Parliament has just made it near impossible for the new PM to "prorogue" it to prevent it changing the default. The hope that the EU will open the deal to provide a revised deal that will bring the rebel Tories back is a very unlikely outcome. Edited July 20, 2019 by JohnfromUK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 1 hour ago, JohnfromUK said: Because Parliament has no majority for leaving. The new PM (whichever it is) will face opposition from: All Lib Dems All SNP All Greens The vast majority of Labour (as instructed by the leadership on a full whip) About 10% of rebel Tories (Greive Clarke, Rory Stewart etc.) Various 'independents' such a Soubery & Co The speaker In support will be; About 90% of Tories The DUP A very few Labour rebels (who will defy the whip) That arithmetic means that it is pretty much impossible to get anything passed ......... and though the 'default' is to leave, Parliament is doing it's best to thwart that. As I understand it Parliament has just made it near impossible for the new PM to "prorogue" it to prevent it changing the default. The hope that the EU will open the deal to provide a revised deal that will bring the rebel Tories back is a very unlikely outcome. I think this captures it well. I admire the confidence some seem to have in Johnson but really do not believe it is well founded. We have already seen numerous examples of his contribution to alternative facts, with the latest being the kipper, I mean seriously, what was we thinking. I really do wonder about the cognitive capacity of the people to whom his style is attractive. As for Farage and the Brexit Party, they did nowhere near as well in the EU elections as some, even many, predicted. I recently read a quote that stated “voting for a populist party is like diving head first into an empty swimming pool because you’re angry there is no water in it” sums it up pretty well I think. Anger seems to be the operative word here, sure there are a minority of people who are well informed individuals opposed to the EU with long standing issues with the bloc but in order to get that 52% vote way back in 2016 UKIP were relying on anger and played on it. So, let’s assume it’s 2025, we’ve been out of the Eu for five years and things aren’t going well. The EU are out of the picture, so who do people focus their anger on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 Perhaps they should focus on anti-semitism. A more worthy cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: So, let’s assume it’s 2025, we’ve been out of the Eu for five years and things aren’t going well. The EU are out of the picture, so who do people focus their anger on? Our own government, which we can change at the next election! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 26 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: Our own government, which we can change at the next election! The government that gave them what they apparently wanted some ten years previously without confirming the specifics? A government / parliament that tried to halt the process of self harm? I think what is happening with Trump across the pond is a reasonable indicator of where the anger may be focussed. If the recent polls of opinion of Conservative party members is anything to go by then the seeds have already been well and truly sown. I believe this is part of the reason elements of Parliament are trying to thwart Brexit now, nothing to do with snouts in the trough (that phrase has interesting roots by the way) and more to do with preventing Brexit being the thin end of the wedge which could lead to much deeper hatred and division in our society. Some people will always be angry and frustrated and look to apportion blame for that on others, it’s just their nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 There are a lot of assumptions being made. I was quite happy tootling along in the EU. After all, it didn’t really have any personal impact on my day to day life, but when given the option to leave, I voted to leave. We were given a vote on the cynical understanding that the populace would vote to remain. They didn’t, and ever since then our own politicians, journalists, media etal have tried anything and everything to thwart the implementation of that democratic vote. I regard them and those who would do likewise as scum. Yes, I am angry now, but I wasn’t before the vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 38 minutes ago, Scully said: We were given a vote on the cynical understanding that the populace would vote to remain. They didn’t, and ever since then our own politicians, journalists, media etal have tried anything and everything to thwart the implementation of that democratic vote. I regard them and those who would do likewise as scum. Yes, I am angry now, but I wasn’t before the vote. Absolutely correct. Cameron believed UKIP were stealing tory votes (they were) so tried to get them back by offering a referendum (which worked) The problem is , the referendum exposed just how bad anti EU sentiment was, and now you simply cant put that jack back in the box. Blame the tories if you like, but all they have done is given the disenfranchised a voice, and a platform. Blame Farage if it makes you feel better, but you would never know his name if there werent millions of people sick to the back teeth of EU meddling, and the slow march to loss of national identity . Raja and oowee can talk about reconsidering or reforming , and 'going back to the people' they are tactics designed to stall and overturn the vote. The remain MPs are just the same 'Its not in the best interests of the nation !' they say, then why did you pass the bill to have a referendum ? Why did you vote to trigger article 50 ? Quite simple, because it was in THEIR best interests to do so, lest they be seen to be undemocratic, now they hide behind the 'best interests' cause. But its still about them, not about who they are supposed to represent , THAT is a national disgrace, for which there should be an immediate GE. But they wont vote for that either, because they know half of them will lose their seats, its always been about staying in control. At what point will they either deliver Brexit, or put themselves up for scrutiny, and the resultant blood bath. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toxo Posted July 20, 2019 Report Share Posted July 20, 2019 5 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: Because Parliament has no majority for leaving. The new PM (whichever it is) will face opposition from: All Lib Dems All SNP All Greens The vast majority of Labour (as instructed by the leadership on a full whip) About 10% of rebel Tories (Greive Clarke, Rory Stewart etc.) Various 'independents' such a Soubery & Co The speaker In support will be; About 90% of Tories The DUP A very few Labour rebels (who will defy the whip) That arithmetic means that it is pretty much impossible to get anything passed ......... and though the 'default' is to leave, Parliament is doing it's best to thwart that. As I understand it Parliament has just made it near impossible for the new PM to "prorogue" it to prevent it changing the default. The hope that the EU will open the deal to provide a revised deal that will bring the rebel Tories back is a very unlikely outcome. If there is an extension there will be a general election and then the numbers will change. THEN these rogue politicians who "respected" the result will feel the wrath of at least 17.4 million (which will have increased in my book by then) real people. And then watch the numbers change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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