Brexit - merged threads

[12gauge82]

I don't think the death of democracy in the UK is anything to laugh about, particularly when so many died in foreign lands fighting for it. I still believe ultimately the politicians responsible for this will pay for their treacherous behaviour towards the people they are meant to represent in future elections, my only sencere hope is that the far right doesn't rise from this, as has been shown in history, when the people have been trodden on enough, the far right will rise. 

[ShootingEgg]

1 minute ago, 12gauge82 said:

I don't think the death of democracy in the UK is anything to laugh about, particularly when so many died in foreign lands fighting for it. I still believe ultimately the politicians responsible for this will pay for their treacherous behaviour towards the people they are meant to represent in future elections, my only sencere hope is that the far right doesn't rise from this, as has been shown in history, when the people have been trodden on enough, the far right will rise. 

Yet if this goes the way it is currently looking like we will be going left. Neither way is good... 

[WestonSalop]

"Neither way is good". Never a truer word said.

My prediction - a repeat of the frustrations at the time of the Poll Tax riots. 

A choice between the People's Republic of Corbyn or the status quo of the Tory establishment doesn't fill me with joy. In fact I despair on behalf of my kids. I've had more than my fair share of a good life but the future for the next generation or two is bleak.

But is there a sustainable third choice? Seemingly not. Anarchy it seems, is about to reign.

 

 

[Rewulf]

31 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

Well, I can’t honestly say I’ve never ever felt ‘repressed’ By the hand of the great EU in the last fifty years, and I very doubt many of you have either.

I should imagine no one felt repressed by the nazi party in 1920 either.

Repression of the populace, or parts thereof, is dependent on the state actor doing the repressing to be in total control.
Without the back up of police, army and to an extent, government, with a healthy amount of populace being in agreement or apathetic, repression is impossible.
The EU , not being in control to that extent, is a toothless and clawless tiger, it can make noise and threatening manoeuvres , but it is in no where near  any position to enforce anything...YET.

This is where my problem with it stems from, and as in my last post, the slow creeping  way it assumes more and more power over us.
You dont notice it if it plays slowly slowly catchy monkey, you have to ask yourself why it NEEDS to do this, why WE NEED it to do this, and the extremely stealthy way it votes itself into this position.

Did you get to vote on Maastrict , Lisbon treaties ?
Do you not think it was important , that we should have had a vote ?
Its a troubling aspect of the EU that it has literally come into being, this cash eating monstrosity, that year by year assumes more and more control over 500 million peoples daily lives, and not a single one of us voted it into being.
Those who did vote to disrupt its various treaties were either told to vote again or ignored.
Our own vote 3 years ago now, is, (by various factions including the EU and associated cronies), attemping to be subverted, vote again they say, its the only way to be fair ?

So in summary, no we are not repressed , by the time we are , we will be in no position to do anything about it.
We will in fact, probably want it, if that makes any sense ?

One of the easiest ways to gain control, or to make the populace WANT more control, is to take advantage of a traumatic state of affairs, this could be a natural disaster, a war , or an economic recession, the nazi party used the great depression to take control, but by then the people , having had a decade of austerity and political strife, welcomed them with open arms.

Learning the lessons of history is not always about not repeating the mistakes, once the mistakes are made , its very difficult to get ourselves out of the mire.
Its noticing the patterns of behaviour that lead to the triggers that make the mistakes possible.

The EU has too much power that it simply does not need to do its job.
It does not need an army,
It does not need to meddle in other European nations laws or finances.
It has assumed this power, without a single vote being cast in its  formation.
At least the Germans of the 1920s got a vote.

[12gauge82]

4 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

I should imagine no one felt repressed by the nazi party in 1920 either.

Repression of the populace, or parts thereof, is dependent on the state actor doing the repressing to be in total control.
Without the back up of police, army and to an extent, government, with a healthy amount of populace being in agreement or apathetic, repression is impossible.
The EU , not being in control to that extent, is a toothless and clawless tiger, it can make noise and threatening manoeuvres , but it is in no where near  any position to enforce anything...YET.

This is where my problem with it stems from, and as in my last post, the slow creeping  way it assumes more and more power over us.
You dont notice it if it plays slowly slowly catchy monkey, you have to ask yourself why it NEEDS to do this, why WE NEED it to do this, and the extremely stealthy way it votes itself into this position.

Did you get to vote on Maastrict , Lisbon treaties ?
Do you not think it was important , that we should have had a vote ?
Its a troubling aspect of the EU that it has literally come into being, this cash eating monstrosity, that year by year assumes more and more control over 500 million peoples daily lives, and not a single one of us voted it into being.
Those who did vote to disrupt its various treaties were either told to vote again or ignored.
Our own vote 3 years ago now, is, (by various factions including the EU and associated cronies), attemping to be subverted, vote again they say, its the only way to be fair ?

So in summary, no we are not repressed , by the time we are , we will be in no position to do anything about it.
We will in fact, probably want it, if that makes any sense ?

One of the easiest ways to gain control, or to make the populace WANT more control, is to take advantage of a traumatic state of affairs, this could be a natural disaster, a war , or an economic recession, the nazi party used the great depression to take control, but by then the people , having had a decade of austerity and political strife, welcomed them with open arms.

Learning the lessons of history is not always about not repeating the mistakes, once the mistakes are made , its very difficult to get ourselves out of the mire.
Its noticing the patterns of behaviour that lead to the triggers that make the mistakes possible.

The EU has too much power that it simply does not need to do its job.
It does not need an army,
It does not need to meddle in other European nations laws or finances.
It has assumed this power, without a single vote being cast in its  formation.
At least the Germans of the 1920s got a vote.

Very good post, I share the same concerns. 

[Jaymo]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

I should imagine no one felt repressed by the nazi party in 1920 either.

Repression of the populace, or parts thereof, is dependent on the state actor doing the repressing to be in total control.
Without the back up of police, army and to an extent, government, with a healthy amount of populace being in agreement or apathetic, repression is impossible.
The EU , not being in control to that extent, is a toothless and clawless tiger, it can make noise and threatening manoeuvres , but it is in no where near  any position to enforce anything...YET.

This is where my problem with it stems from, and as in my last post, the slow creeping  way it assumes more and more power over us.
You dont notice it if it plays slowly slowly catchy monkey, you have to ask yourself why it NEEDS to do this, why WE NEED it to do this, and the extremely stealthy way it votes itself into this position.

Did you get to vote on Maastrict , Lisbon treaties ?
Do you not think it was important , that we should have had a vote ?
Its a troubling aspect of the EU that it has literally come into being, this cash eating monstrosity, that year by year assumes more and more control over 500 million peoples daily lives, and not a single one of us voted it into being.
Those who did vote to disrupt its various treaties were either told to vote again or ignored.
Our own vote 3 years ago now, is, (by various factions including the EU and associated cronies), attemping to be subverted, vote again they say, its the only way to be fair ?

So in summary, no we are not repressed , by the time we are , we will be in no position to do anything about it.
We will in fact, probably want it, if that makes any sense ?

One of the easiest ways to gain control, or to make the populace WANT more control, is to take advantage of a traumatic state of affairs, this could be a natural disaster, a war , or an economic recession, the nazi party used the great depression to take control, but by then the people , having had a decade of austerity and political strife, welcomed them with open arms.

Learning the lessons of history is not always about not repeating the mistakes, once the mistakes are made , its very difficult to get ourselves out of the mire.
Its noticing the patterns of behaviour that lead to the triggers that make the mistakes possible.

The EU has too much power that it simply does not need to do its job.
It does not need an army,
It does not need to meddle in other European nations laws or finances.
It has assumed this power, without a single vote being cast in its  formation.
At least the Germans of the 1920s got a vote.

Are you saying it’s all subversive? Well you did advise me on the best ‘baking foil’ in another thread, so it looks like I’m going to have to go all posh and go to Waitrose!

[Rewulf]

9 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

Are you saying it’s all subversive?

I have always said the EU is a good idea, poorly executed.
As a stand alone trading organisation its a great idea, and it was.
Why does it now constantly seek to further its powers, why is it so large , in terms of personnel and cost ? It tells us its good value for money, yet it costs more to run than the GDP of Montenegro or Malawi , £6 bn or thereabouts, getting an exact figure is difficult due to its 'complexity'

Is it all subversive, no.
But the higher echelons have an agenda, which is pushing further and further to totalitarianism.
When people like verhofstadt talk of stamping out the 'enemy' of nationalism, when people like Junker talk openly about lying to further the aims of the project.
Then these lot  talk about 'for the good of the people' which people ? Just the ones that agree with them ?

Its not really about what I think, Ive made my mind up it needs to stop. curl up, and die, its not conducive to the good of the people of Europe.
Its more important what you think, you believe that it furthers your vision for the future ?
It might do, for now, but you are agreeing to letting the wolf look after your sheep.
How much trust do you, SHOULD you , put into the EU ?
Remember, you didnt vote for them, they voted themselves into power, when you find they hold all the cards, all the power over you, and theres no way of getting rid of them, the best tin foil hat in the world wont help.
 

[Rewulf]

Interesting.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-brexit-john-bercow-blocks-14153951

If May cant even table her deal (for the 3rd time) her deal is deader that its already dead state of deader than dead 😆

Will the deal some how re animate itself and become some zombie deal, the walking deal ?

Bercow, a remainer, allegedly has just sealed off another get out for Mays moderates, does he think that it rules out no deal too ?

A silly move, the rat is now  cornered, now you have to kill it (if you can) or it has to come right through you, you should always leave an avenue of escape if you dont have the stomach for the fight .

[oowee]

More delay then? Or new parliament. 

[WestonSalop]

We are up the creek without a paddle as far as I can see. I'm no parliamentary procedure expert - does this now mean that with last week's vote to preclude a No Deal Brexit and Bercow's intervention, that Brexit is stuffed? 

 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

More delay then? Or new parliament. 

No time for new Parliament.
A delay is wholly dependent on all 27 agreeing to it, I think thats a tall order, plus they havent put the basis or length of time into the ask as far as I know, the clock runs down ..

 

3 minutes ago, WestonSalop said:

We are up the creek without a paddle as far as I can see. I'm no parliamentary procedure expert - does this now mean that with last week's vote to preclude a No Deal Brexit and Bercow's intervention, that Brexit is stuffed? 

 

No , the legal framework for no deal still exists, it is still the fallback, Bercow has made it more likely in my view.
Bercows intervention could be withdrawn, I think it will, but it matters not, without removing the backstop its highly unlikely to get passed.

They havent changed the law to remove no deal as fall back, if they try, Moggy will legally challenge it, and likely win.

No time for elections, no time for a new deal, an unlikely delay scenario, no where to go except no deal 

[oowee]

I just thought of a possible good out come of Brexit. We might get back duty free. 

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

I just thought of a possible good out come of Brexit. We might get back duty free. 

Wont need duty free , everythings going to be that cheap it wont be worth going abroad!
And with global warming bring the temperature up 5 degrees in the next 10 years , itll be like Spain in Bournemouth 🤣

[oowee]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Wont need duty free , everythings going to be that cheap it wont be worth going abroad!
And with global warming bring the temperature up 5 degrees in the next 10 years , itll be like Spain in Bournemouth 🤣

That's it shatter my dreams of a light at the end of the tunnel. I was just about to order a tiny pair of scissors that i could use at the airport to open the bag. 

[WestonSalop]

Just now, Rewulf said:

Wont need duty free , everythings going to be that cheap it wont be worth going abroad!
And with global warming bring the temperature up 5 degrees in the next 10 years , itll be like Spain in Bournemouth 🤣

Well if someone had told me that in 96, I would have voted Leave. Getting bladdered in the sun seems like the only way to cope with the carp that we are subjected to. Mine's a Glenmorangie on ice please.

[Scully]

4 hours ago, Jaymo said:

Well, I can’t honestly say I’ve never ever felt ‘repressed’ 

 

 

🤔 Mmmm....getting a little confused?  

I’ve never felt repressed either, if that’s what you’re trying to say, but no one ever does....until it’s too late of course. 

I think it ironic that the EU, being the undemocratic institution it is, is being helped to blatantly display just how undemocratic it is, by a nation of embittered people tripping over themselves to overturn the democratic process; a nation of people whose ancestors died in defence of that very cause! If anyone was unsure of how undemocratic the EU institution really is, you’d be hard pushed to find a better example! Is it me! 😀

You really couldn’t make it up....matey. 

 

[Rewulf]

1 minute ago, WestonSalop said:

Well if someone had told me that in 96, I would have voted Leave. Getting bladdered in the sun seems like the only way to cope with the carp that we are subjected to. Mine's a Glenmorangie on ice please.

Aah , slight problem there, Scotlands decided to stop in the EU and forced to take their currency , so theyre running hyper inflation at the moment  , that drinks gonna cost you 30 euro  😂

But its ok the Welsh whisky industries booming, and cheap £1 Sir !

[JohnfromUK]

3 minutes ago, WestonSalop said:

Mine's a Glenmorangie on ice please.

Sacrilege.  😮

 

[WestonSalop]

10 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Aah , slight problem there, Scotlands decided to stop in the EU and forced to take their currency , so theyre running hyper inflation at the moment  , that drinks gonna cost you 30 euro  😂

But its ok the Welsh whisky industries booming, and cheap £1 Sir !

Actually, I am quite partial to Penderyn's product.  Based on what you say, I might have to ditch the Scottish stuff when they get independence (only a matter of time?).

And Johnfrom UK - sorry to have offended you by adding the ice...……. 

I'm conscious of the fact we are now way off topic. Sorry, I'll stop.

Edited March 18, 2019 by WestonSalop
hit send too early

[Mice!]

6 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

But its ok the Welsh whisky industries booming

yuk, the welsh stuff I had was like fire water

13 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Sacrilege.  😮

 

What's wrong with ice 🤔

[JohnfromUK]

7 minutes ago, WestonSalop said:

And Johnfrom UK - sorry to have offended you by adding the ice...……

🥃 - No ice in malt (but admit to liking it in a blend).  End of off topic!!

Just now, Mice! said:

What's wrong with ice

Its slippery, makes you fall over (most people think its the whisky)  🤣

[Jaymo]

Woooo hooo, at last - some light hearted ness 🙂

Oowee, now you know you can’t have scissors on a plane, no matter the size! Use a can instead, slice like a good un they do

[Bazooka Joe]

Quote

No , the legal framework for no deal still exists, it is still the fallback, Bercow has made it more likely in my view.
Bercows intervention could be withdrawn, I think it will, but it matters not, without removing the backstop its highly unlikely to get passed.

They havent changed the law to remove no deal as fall back, if they try, Moggy will legally challenge it, and likely win.

No time for elections, no time for a new deal, an unlikely delay scenario, no where to go except no deal 

And hopefully the 27 won't agree on an extension, roll on the 29th.

[Rewulf]

8 minutes ago, Bazooka Joe said:

And hopefully the 27 won't agree on an extension, roll on the 29th.

It only needs one of them to veto it, Hungary,  Poland, Italy....Macron in France cos he doesn't really know what he's doing !

[Bazooka Joe]

2 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

It only needs one of them to veto it, Hungary,  Poland, Italy....Macron in France cos he doesn't really know what he's doing !

Yes agree, just re-read my post, apologies that was what I meant to say..