Do extended chokes really affect gun handling?

[Wingman]

Ok so i'll admit it, I have developed something of an obsession with chokes recently and I agree its probably not healthy!

You may have seen from my recent posts I have been testing a bunch of chokes including Teals, Briley and factory Beretta Mobil chokes in my 682X Trap and today I had the chance to try a set of Teague Titanium's (borrowed).  Have to admit I really haven't seen a blind bit of difference between any of them, apart from the Teal's which my latest ones were quite poorly machined on the threads.  After all of that I have ended up back where I started using the factory Beretta flush mounted jobbies not because they perform better but they "seem" to make the gun feel just that bit more responsive and balanced.  I wonder if this is all in the mind although I have spent some time in the kitchen using Mrs Wingmans highly accurate cooking scales and its clear that the weight difference is quite significant. 

Extended IC Briley - 33 Grams

Extended IC Teal - 31 Grams

Flush Mount Beretta IC - 16 Grams

So total weight of 2 flush mount Beretta IC's weighs 32 grams less than a single Briley extended and a pair of the beefy Briley's add 34 grams or 1.2 ounces at the end of the barrel over the flush mounts. That seems quite a bit to me, and sounds like it would affect the handling making the gun barrel heavy, but enough to notice?

Be interested in getting your views but definitely not intending to start an extended vs flush vs teague vs briley etc etc etc battle

[chesterse]

Yes I believe it can. I have gone through a similar process as yourself and as you have demonstrated different chokes weigh differently.

Even the same choke type eg. a Beretta factory optima 3/4 will weigh heavier than a cyl.

I’ve experimented with various different makes/ weights of chokes in my DT 10 and am convinced that it can affect the handling of the gun. Funny thing is like you went back to the original factory cokes!

[TIGHTCHOKE]

A lot of people go through the obsession with chokes thing.

Not sure you need to go in to the individual weights quite so far.

[Wingman]

7 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

A lot of people go through the obsession with chokes thing.

Not sure you need to go in to the individual weights quite so far.

I know, just had a bit too much time on my hands and love a bit of useless research!

[timps]

With extremely heavy chokes I can and did notice the difference.

My Browning B425 ultra xs had extended Midas chokes which seemed to be made out of the heaviest substance known to man combined with the heavy barrels made it very noticeable. Without them in the gun felt much better, with them in it felt like a pig on a shovel.

So I bought some lighter and ported to reduce even more weight extended chokes, the gun did feel better, however, I got to despise ported chokes with a passion even though the gun felt better.

With my DT10 I never noticed the difference between Standard, Muller or flush Teague so just put it down to the ridiculously heavy Midas chokes.

[MrPhantom]

25 minutes ago, timps said:

With extremely heavy chokes I can and did notice the difference.

My Browning B425 ultra xs had extended Midas chokes which seemed to be made out of the heaviest substance known to man combined with the heavy barrels made it very noticeable. Without them in the gun felt much better, with them in it felt like a pig on a shovel.

So I bought some lighter and ported to reduce even more weight extended chokes, the gun did feel better, however, I got to despise ported chokes with a passion even though the gun felt better.

With my DT10 I never noticed the difference between Standard, Muller or flush Teague so just put it down to the ridiculously heavy Midas chokes.

Exactly my experience. I swapped out the Midas chokes for Mullers and, to me, my XS felt better instantly. I ended up adding a couple of oz to the stock too to get the balance exactly how I wanted it.

[Gunman]

OK this is a personal opinion , but until you have shot a gun with a non multi choke barrels ,then I think you will notice  a  difference in the handling of multi choked /non multi choke barrels .All the multi choked guns I have handled seem to be muzzle heavy which is inevitable due to their construction . So any additional weight to the muzzle will affect. Makers will take this into account and make chokes to give best handling .

Having spent many years in the trade and saw the first multi's come on the market i am still of the opinion that they are a passing phase . 

There is so much rubbish talked about these and chokes in general that I stopped arguing with people who told me that .002" extra or less would affect their shooting .

A point here is that some years ago we re-barreled a gun for a customer , a game shooter who ran his own shoots and shot 2 or 3 times a week through the season ,he had  requested 1/4 & IMp Cyl chokes . For some reason they were never bored from the 3/4 & 3/4 that the gun was proofed at . After the season he brought the gun back for servicing and told us what a hard hitting gun it was and how pleased he was with it . He still thinks its 1/4 & Imp .

[Gordon R]

My Salvinelli Monaco has 3/8 and 3/8 - done by Teague. Since having that done, I have not shot my other multi-choked gun (same model). It just takes up space in the cabinet. I don't think I would ever go back to multi-chokes.

[Hamster]

22 minutes ago, Gunman said:

OK this is a personal opinion , but until you have shot a gun with a non multi choke barrels ,then I think you will notice  a  difference in the handling of multi choked /non multi choke barrels .All the multi choked guns I have handled seem to be muzzle heavy which is inevitable due to their construction . So any additional weight to the muzzle will affect. Makers will take this into account and make chokes to give best handling .

Having spent many years in the trade and saw the first multi's come on the market i am still of the opinion that they are a passing phase . 

There is so much rubbish talked about these and chokes in general that I stopped arguing with people who told me that .002" extra or less would affect their shooting .

A point here is that some years ago we re-barreled a gun for a customer , a game shooter who ran his own shoots and shot 2 or 3 times a week through the season ,he had  requested 1/4 & IMp Cyl chokes . For some reason they were never bored from the 3/4 & 3/4 that the gun was proofed at . After the season he brought the gun back for servicing and told us what a hard hitting gun it was and how pleased he was with it . He still thinks its 1/4 & Imp .

I certainly agree there is a lot of nonsense spoken about chokes but I'd love to know how you still think multi chokes are a passing phase after 40 years ! 😊

That's hardly surprising, he thinks he's shooting open bores but he is in fact shooting rather tight chokes that will hammer average birds unnecessarily hard. 

As to the original question, I have personally tended to believe different chokes don't affect feel (enough to matter) one way or the other, I certainly wouldn't want to tell what's screwed into my own 682e in a blind test. To qualify that though I have to add that my main experience comes from shooting either Briley flush (which I prefer because they fit in the cabinet and look less council) and Beretta's own Optima extended which the gun came with, having recently acquired a few Briley extended versions they seem noticeably heavier in my hands and I think I can feel them weighting the barrels down a tad. 

[Wingman]

And I think Gunmans post hits the nail on the head, other guns that I use most are either my Beretta 686 Special or my sidelock side by side.  Both have fixed chokes and I cant even remember whats in the side by side (nor do I care because I can hit stuff with it).  I have to agree that both of my fixed chokers seem to handle beautifully and its probably down to me being used to the balance (and less hassle) of fixed choke guns.  My Perazzi MT6 which has extended Teagues swings like a builders shovel in comparison the 2 fixed choke guns, the Beretta 682X however with the original flush mounted chokes is pretty damn close though to the balance and swing of my fixed guns.

[Scully]

Hadn’t given this any thought until I read this thread, but now I have, Ive come to realise that regardless of choke, all my most memorable  shooting days bar one have been with fixed choke guns. The exception was with a Teagued slim flush choked gun. 

Must admit I do prefer to shoot with fixed chokes guns, and my highest scores on sporting clays have been with tight fixed chokes. Strange.

Edited August 23, 2019 by Scully

[Gunman]

Hamster you have made the point THINK . Again we have a problem that to many shooters "think " rather than shoot . As a young man the best advice I was given by an elderly shooter was that if you think you miss . 

So in my time dealing with customers problems a common denominator has been -

I THINK my chokes are wrong 

I THINK my stock doesn't fit 

I THINK my barrels are to short 

I THINK etc etc 

Shooting should be largely instinctive , see , mount , shoot . You buy a gun and learn to use it .

I know I an  going off thread slightly but I strongly believe , born out by experience that THINKING is a large part of ,some ,  shooters problems .Once you have thought something you can not unthink it .

As to the question of after market chokes affecting a guns handling that is down to the individual  opinion of each of us . 

[wymberley]

16 hours ago, Wingman said:

And I think Gunmans post hits the nail on the head, other guns that I use most are either my Beretta 686 Special or my sidelock side by side.  Both have fixed chokes and I cant even remember whats in the side by side (nor do I care because I can hit stuff with it).  I have to agree that both of my fixed chokers seem to handle beautifully and its probably down to me being used to the balance (and less hassle) of fixed choke guns.  My Perazzi MT6 which has extended Teagues swings like a builders shovel in comparison the 2 fixed choke guns, the Beretta 682X however with the original flush mounted chokes is pretty damn close though to the balance and swing of my fixed guns.

Agreed. By and large shooters are a conservative lot so 40 years (is that all it is?) is but the blink of an eye. Just be patient, it's just a fad. No different really to the new fangled SST idea. Through no fault of my own, I have one gun in my cabinet which have both of these idiosyncracies embodied which I took out for the corvids about a week ago. The gun is new. It is said by some that they can't get used to changing triggers when shooting a gun which sensibly has two such devices installed. Well, I have to say that I found trying to move a stiff safety catch from one barrel to another before a rook which had suddenly decided to change its mind regarding the direction in which it was heading before it became out of shot was a damned sight more difficult - not to mention ungainly and being by far the slower of the two options. I believe that the advice Father passed on about the nature of the terminal tackle when fishing applies equally to shotguns: Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS).

[Robertt]

Great reply, Gunman.

Had choke swapping syndrome many years ago and it is definately an extremely serious distraction from the job in hand.

I havn't had a multi choke gun for years but bought a S x S M/C about a year ago.

I didn't buy it because of the M/C but because it was a lovely gun.

The first thing I did was stick the same choke in both barrels and I'm  not going to change them.

 

 

 

 

[Hamster]

Hmmm, regardless of whether or not you think while taking the shot you cannot change certain physical facts. It doesn't matter an iota whether you shoot instinctively or not, if you hit a pheasant (or clay for that matter) at 35 yards with 3/4 choke you're gonna make a mess of it, the same clay or bird shot with IC will just break or fall out of the sky, often needing a second shot to kill it outright. 

You may well get away with "instinctive" shooting at average days and average birds but clays are altogether different, I've a feeling it takes more than just throwing the gun up casually at good high (or generally testing) birds too. 

On more than one clay comp occasion I have felt my breaks and even the odd miss were poor shooting and subsequently found I'd left very open chokes in the gun. 

[figgy]

For game I love my fixed choke Sidelock, very instinctive to shoot and handles like you would expect. Son shoots the Beretta 687 fixed choke gun and prefers fixed chokes. My multichoked guns both have half chokes fitted and they stay that way untill I fit tighter for goose shooting. The balance is notable. 

The gun that shows it most is the Browning Crown, fixed half and half is a lovely balanced gun. The multichoked 525 feels front heavy and unwieldy when compared.

It seems more guns are being made of late with fixed chokes. Browning and Miroku have some new models out.

The Teague and Briley thin wall choke system shouldn't alter the gun as they put back with the thin chokes about same as the metal they remove.

Edited August 23, 2019 by figgy

[Wingman]

3 hours ago, Gunman said:

So in my time dealing with customers problems a common denominator has been -

I THINK my chokes are wrong 

I THINK my stock doesn't fit 

I THINK my barrels are to short 

I THINK etc etc 

Shooting should be largely instinctive , see , mount , shoot . You buy a gun and learn to use it .

Agree 100% and that is why my 13 year old son shoots so well (and often better than me).  He doesnt care what chokes are in his gun, nor about the stock or even the cartridges. He is just happy to have his own gun, be out with his dad and have the opportunity to shoot a shotgun at a clay ground. He's had a fair bit of coaching but that is focusing on his personal technique rather than tying him up in knots worrying about chokes etc.

[Gunman]

2 hours ago, Hamster said:

Hmmm, regardless of whether or not you think while taking the shot you cannot change certain physical facts. It doesn't matter an iota whether you shoot instinctively or not, if you hit a pheasant (or clay for that matter) at 35 yards with 3/4 choke you're gonna make a mess of it, the same clay or bird shot with IC will just break or fall out of the sky, often needing a second shot to kill it outright. 

You may well get away with "instinctive" shooting at average days and average birds but clays are altogether different, I've a feeling it takes more than just throwing the gun up casually at good high (or generally testing) birds too. 

On more than one clay comp occasion I have felt my breaks and even the odd miss were poor shooting and subsequently found I'd left very open chokes in the gun. 

I both agree and disagree . If shooting game then use a game gun set up for that and know the capabilities and range of the gun and cartridge ,you should also know if a shot will be possible and practical .Thats the thinking part . As a game gun should have two triggers , you can quickly select either open or closed chokes so no problem there .    . The rest when you have decided yes its a good shot should be the  instinctive part . 

Yes you do have to "think" about some shots , the same as you have to "think" about steering your car , yet when coming to a bend we dont think oh here is a bent I must turn the wheel 1/3 of a turn . We just do it automaticaly our brains doing the thinking without us  having to work it out stage by stage . 

A clay gun should be set up for the discipline shot so the same applies as to knowing the gun , the cartridge and the skill of the man behind it . 

Problem with these threads we get side tracked unlike a chat over a cuppa , forgetting the original questions . So sorry folks I'll shut up now .  

[alastair0903]

Great point about the balance of your gun with extended chokes. I went for mullers as they are extremely light weight, but now after fitting and adjustable stock have moved the balance the opposite way  

[Scully]

A mate shoots a pair of Miroku Sporterised trap guns. Both are fitted with extended Teague’s but he only ever uses skeet and cylinder for sporting. He rarely finishes outside the top three, but when last at Southwaite another gun suggested he would need something tighter for a stand on which he had only scored 4ex 8. Mate nodded in acknowledgment but didn’t bother to change chokes and went on to straight the stand. 🙂

As they say...’you’re either on em or you’re not’. 🙂

[Smokersmith]

8 hours ago, Hamster said:

It doesn't matter an iota whether you shoot instinctively or not, if you hit a pheasant (or clay for that matter) at 35 yards with 3/4 choke you're gonna make a mess of it, the same clay or bird shot with IC will just break or fall out of the sky, often needing a second shot to kill it outright. 

I think you maybe should try some other shells. I’ve used 1/4 for years on all game (apart from ‘special’ days) and folded up the vast majority stone dead out to 60 yards .... 

[Hamster]

1 hour ago, Smokersmith said:

I think you maybe should try some other shells. I’ve used 1/4 for years on all game (apart from ‘special’ days) and folded up the vast majority stone dead out to 60 yards .... 

I think you ought to try a different tape measure. 😂😂 😄 

[Robertt]

It wasn't till I obtained laser Rangefinder for Air Rifle shooting that I realised how far out my range estimation was.

Over ground guessing accurately is more diffecult than you might think and I will put my neck on the block and say judging accurate distance in the sky is very difficult. 

 

 

a

[JohnfromUK]

6 hours ago, Robertt said:

judging accurate distance in the sky is very difficult.

Very true.  Distances in the sky tend to 'look further' than the same distance along the ground.