Medic1281 Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said: I prefer the "Guy Fawkes" option! I think you’re right. The MP’s aren’t representing the wishes of their constituents, so effectively not doing their job. They need sacking, and Replacing with people who will carry out the wishes of the voting majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 For once Tony Blair got it right. He said Labour should avoid an election and Corbyn agrees. Spineless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: I prefer the "Guy Fawkes" option! I dont think were quite at that stage yet 😄 And I dont believe remainers should be counting theyre chickens yet either, this move was likely anticipated. The question I have for the remainers on the board is , how far are you prepared to damage trust and faith in our political institutions, our democratic rights , to enable staying in an institution that doesnt believe in those rights ? This is typical EU 'democracy' , force a country to keep voting until the 'correct' result is obtained, and if money can be used to 'influence' that vote, then that is acceptable. How important is staying in this 'trade bloc' to you ? Is it worth tearing this country apart ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aled Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 11 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Is it worth tearing this country apart ? Lets be honest Rewulf the present situation is doing a pretty good job of "tearing the country apart" as it is. I stopped voicing an opinion on this, as my opinion no longer counts, I feel that if the 52% genuinely feel that leaving the EU will bring us posterity fine, take us to the promised land. What I will say is that the small number of leave voters I know, only 2 voted leave for economic/cultural reasons, stating many similar economic & cultural comments to the ones I've read on here, by many people, they may have some grains of truth to them (as do similar comments mentioned by those who support remain). My family members who voted leave (and as I've said before they are people I like) from the old industrial valleys, voted leave for one reason and one reason alone IMMIGRATION. From their perspective, put control on that, and whatever other aspects a EU deal takes is irrelevant, they will be happy. Take what you want from my comments but they are based on my personal experience and I accept have no economic or statistical backing to them. Cheers Aled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 A refreshingly honest post, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 Yes, fair play Aled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt Christopher Jones Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 He wasnt reading a script ( as most "modern MPs do "), it was as he saw the issue & i thought his speech was spot-on, & he got Moggie summed up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hedge Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 (edited) On the face on it, Boris is trying to deliver the referendum result? Parliament can't agree on a deal, so the default position is no deal? They don't want a no deal, so they want a delay, to agree a deal. Parliament can't agree on a deal, so the default position is no deal? And repeat. We've been here before and I can't see a solution. Well I can - another referendum and we stay in the EU, because that's really what a lot of MP's and business leaders (one in the same?) want and why they have frustrated the whole process. I'm totally undecided on Boris - I wasn't keen on him as FS or London Mayor. I'm still not keen on him BUT he at least is making the right noises about leaving without a deal if that is effectively the only option we have. Take that out of the equestion and the EU just laugh at us (again). As has been said before - lots of people in Parliament have their own agenda and without a consensus this will just go round in circles. We can talk about democracy, the constitution etc, but Parliament still seem to think that they know what is best for us, when their main motivation seems to be self-preservation, money, career, greed and/or non-exec director roles. I really don't know where this will go next. Edited September 4, 2019 by hedge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 15 minutes ago, Aled said: Lets be honest Rewulf the present situation is doing a pretty good job of "tearing the country apart" as it is. I stopped voicing an opinion on this, as my opinion no longer counts, I feel that if the 52% genuinely feel that leaving the EU will bring us posterity fine, take us to the promised land. What I will say is that the small number of leave voters I know, only 2 voted leave for economic/cultural reasons, stating many similar economic & cultural comments to the ones I've read on here, by many people, they may have some grains of truth to them (as do similar comments mentioned by those who support remain). My family members who voted leave (and as I've said before they are people I like) from the old industrial valleys, voted leave for one reason and one reason alone IMMIGRATION. From their perspective, put control on that, and whatever other aspects a EU deal takes is irrelevant, they will be happy. Take what you want from my comments but they are based on my personal experience and I accept have no economic or statistical backing to them. Cheers Aled The present situation is born out of the reluctance of some of those who are supposed to represent us, not wanting to enact what the vote said, despite the fact that they said they would ! And were voted in last election on the back of it. Now, they dont want to support it, they dont want an election, and if truth be told, they dont want a 2nd Ref/peoples vote. They, the remain MPs , just want it to go away, revoke it, stop it, and forget about it, they are not interested that their parliamentary careers are over, they arent bothered what their constituents want, they are self centered and egotistical, and either think they know best, or are looking at some kind of reward for their 'services' I dont care why the people of this country voted leave..or remain, whether it was for fear of over immigration , or because you thought mobile roaming charges would go up, or you liked going to Spain for your holidays, its your vote to do with as you please, and to say one persons vote isnt worth what anothers is, is the road to dystopia. The fact is, we were given the vote, and the result of it is being ignored, and thats not right. And you can wriggle and squirm trying to make it sound like the question wasnt right, or the mood has changed, but that doesnt make it right either. Although Boris has a problem to solve here, the bigger problem is what to do if he cant solve it, and if any one thinks remaining is some kind of default on that, think again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 A democratic decision was made by the people of the UK via a referendum...the people responsible for "tearing this country apart" are those that do not and will not accept that democratic vote! Remainers who say Johnson is a liar are hypocrites, remainers are liars hiding behind the movement to stop a "no deal Brexit"......because they know if they stop a no deal Brexit they effectively stop Brexit........ As for immigration being the only reason people voted for Brexit, that is not my experience, freedom of movement throughout the EU was but one Brexit issue...... immigration is another issue but has nothing to do with Brexit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestonSalop Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, panoma1 said: A democratic decision was made by the people of the UK via a referendum...the people responsible for "tearing this country apart" are those that do not and will not accept that democratic vote! Remainers who say Johnson is a liar are hypocrites, remainers are liars hiding behind the movement to stop a "no deal Brexit"......because they know if they stop a no deal Brexit they effectively stop Brexit........ As for immigration being the only reason people voted for Brexit, that is not my experience, freedom of movement throughout the EU was but one Brexit issue...... immigration is another issue but has nothing to do with Brexit! I tend to agree with most of what you say above except for one key point. Whilst BoJo is undoubtedly the man to get us over the line, he is without doubt a barefaced liar. I have followed his career with interest, mainly for entertainment value but as both a journalist and a politician, he never shirks from altering the facts when it suits him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 20 minutes ago, WestonSalop said: I tend to agree with most of what you say above except for one key point. Whilst BoJo is undoubtedly the man to get us over the line, he is without doubt a barefaced liar. I have followed his career with interest, mainly for entertainment value but as both a journalist and a politician, he never shirks from altering the facts when it suits him. So just your typical politician then. The whole system is a joke and something needs to change! Bring on an election I say, but it won't happen, because despite Liebour calling for one since the last one was over, the truth is they don't want it because they fear their electorate!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 PM's plan is "not a credible negotiating strategy". Standing on one side of a canyon shouting to people on the otherside of the canyon that if they do not do as he wishes he will throw himself into the abyss. That is not a credible negotiating strategy. 🤣🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hedge Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 I cannot remember a time when an Opposition party were scared of a GE being called early. How times have changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aled Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 Thanks henry d & Raj Clavata. Time to wait and watch to see how things develop me thinks, Rewulf I do agree that the majority of MP's do want Brexit to "go away" in some shape or form, but personally I think this is across the board, from the No Deal supporting MP's to the staunch remainers! Cheers Aled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, oowee said: PM's plan is "not a credible negotiating strategy". Standing on one side of a canyon shouting to people on the otherside of the canyon that if they do not do as he wishes he will throw himself into the abyss. That is not a credible negotiating strategy. 🤣🤣 It is when that so called abyss, has the rest of the world in it. All queuing up to do deals once we are free from the restraints of the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 49 minutes ago, oowee said: Standing on one side of a canyon shouting to people on the otherside of the canyon that if they do not do as he wishes he will throw himself into the abyss. Not a very good analogy is it ? If we are on one side , and the EU is on the other, we just get to walk away from the abyss if they wont deal, which they are not. The abyss is the further integration , loss of identity and sovereignty we get if we remain, which people like yourself believe is the necessary price to pay for belonging to the super club. The problem is that little niggly problem of democracy, and how to subvert it. I will tell you now, you cant win this battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 45 minutes ago, Newbie to this said: It is when that so called abyss, has the rest of the world in it. All queuing up to do deals once we are free from the restraints of the EU. Have we not learnt anything over the last 3 years? There is no such thing as an easy trade deal. Of course countries are queing up for a deal. Why would they not be? They can't get an easy deal with the EU as they have the weight to push for a hard settlement. We will be vulnerable and others smell an opportunity. Trade deals come with strings be that in the shape of GM food stuffs, or easy visa's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Not a very good analogy is it ? If we are on one side , and the EU is on the other, we just get to walk away from the abyss if they wont deal, which they are not. The abyss is the further integration , loss of identity and sovereignty we get if we remain, which people like yourself believe is the necessary price to pay for belonging to the super club. The problem is that little niggly problem of democracy, and how to subvert it. I will tell you now, you cant win this battle. I think it's bang on. The world is only so big and no matter how hard we try, no matter how much bluff and bluster, we can't walk away from reality. We have to do the detailed work and sort it out. Running away blaming the world for changing because some of us cannot keep up, yearning for the rose filled fields of the past will not cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 1 hour ago, WestonSalop said: I tend to agree with most of what you say above except for one key point. Whilst BoJo is undoubtedly the man to get us over the line, he is without doubt a barefaced liar. I have followed his career with interest, mainly for entertainment value but as both a journalist and a politician, he never shirks from altering the facts when it suits him. If you re-read my posting you will find I did not claim Johnson was not a liar! I merely offered the opinion that those remainer MP's hiding behind not wanting a "no deal Brexit" and calling him a liar are liars and hypocrites themselves! He was dishonest with the reason for proroging Parliament and the remainer MP's are being dishonest when they claim they are fighting to stop a "no deal Brexit" when everyone knows they are monouvering tactically to stop Brexit altogether! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 There will be so much disolusionment that people will not bother to vote! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 12 minutes ago, oowee said: The world is only so big and no matter how hard we try, no matter how much bluff and bluster, we can't walk away from reality. We have to do the detailed work and sort it out. Running away blaming the world for changing because some of us cannot keep up, yearning for the rose filled fields of the past will not cut it. Whos even saying that ?! The EU is protectionist , introverted, we dont want to be like that anymore , this is a way of being truly global for trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Newbie to this said: So just your typical politician then. The whole system is a joke and something needs to change! Bring on an election I say, but it won't happen, because despite Liebour calling for one since the last one was over, the truth is they don't want it because they fear their electorate!!! Labour refusing a general election is a tactic! Once the remainers have made it unlawful for the UK to leave the EU without a deal.....even if the Tories won a General Election they would never be allowed to get us out because the remainer parliament would never sanction "any"deal! And we couldn't by law leave without a deal! So in what is the struggle between the democratic will of the people and the antidemocratic will of Parliament....Parliament will have won! And the people and democracy will have lost! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted September 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Once the remainers have made it unlawful for the UK to leave the EU without a deal.....even if the Tories won a General Election they would never be allowed to get us out because the remainer parliament would never sanction "any"deal! And we couldn't by law leave without a deal! That is not necessarily true - because if they won a decent majority - they could get anything past the house. That is why it is essential that a deal is done with Farage. Without that we will likely have a minority government, possibly with the Tories as the biggest single party - and a remainer alliance of Labour SNP LibDem as the biggest seat holder group. Result - logjam - as now. The key to progress is getting Brexit over the line - and the key to that is a general election with Farage supporting Johnson. That is THE ONLY route I see by which Brexit can now happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted September 4, 2019 Report Share Posted September 4, 2019 12 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Whos even saying that ?! The EU is protectionist , introverted, we dont want to be like that anymore , this is a way of being truly global for trade. Why? We have to face the reality of the world we live in and the lifestyle we choose to adopt. I want people to have an NHS, employment protection, high standards of animal welfare and so on. We have to be protectionist or lower standards. I don't want my standards lowering thank you. The rest of the civilised world is protectionist I want to live in a civilised world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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