BREXIT

[TIGHTCHOKE]

And plainly many MPs going against the democratic will of the country!

[Dekers]

8 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

And plainly many MPs going against the democratic will of the country!

Absolutely.

It is a disgrace what the remoaners are doing and a humiliation of this country!

[Raja Clavata]

36 minutes ago, oowee said:

Yep no doubt about it the Tories have made the biggest .... up in history. Who in their right minds voted for the kipper despite all the warnings and the writing on the wall. Seems to me there is a big disconnect between the aged Tory membership and the realities of today. 

Our political system is simply not geared up to deal with complex long term tasks, our politicians even less so. It reminds me very much of the financial chaos in Greece where a technocrat government was put in place to resolve the crisis. 

Indeed. I was advocating giving Boris time, in that time he has achieved nothing and defeated on every vote. We were right.

[Danger-Mouse]

Sky Australia nailing it again.

 

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Talking of chickens 😕

Do you really think the question highlighted is the main point or even particularly relevant any more (sorry to ask a question as a response to a question btw)?

Would it not be equally valid to ask pro Leavers if Brexit is so precious to them that it's worth the risk of a Corbyn led coalition government? Even if not likely, it's possible...

`Ok lets dismantle the question.

 how far are you prepared to damage trust and faith in our political institutions, our democratic rights , to enable staying in an institution that doesnt believe in those rights ?

Can we agree that trust in our politics has been severely damaged?
Are there cries of 'Ill never vote again' ?
This is irrespective of which side of the fence you sit on, AND was evident BEFORE the latest attempts to stop Brexit.

Next point , can we agree that the EU , as an institution lacks the same type of democratic process that we in this country are used to ?
Its parliament is largely irrelevant, its leaders unelected, and you yourself have largely agreed , any reform of this situation, is at  best ,difficult, whilst mine is that it is pretty much impossible.
The aims of the so called trade bloc, have drifted in a relative short space of time from trade and standards control, to political and economic control of member states, without a single meaningful vote being given to its 500 million citizens.
More so , any vote on treaty that has been given in rare cases, has never been recognised if it has been negative toward the EU.
So , its  a fair thing to say , the EU is an undemocratic institution, at least when you compare it to , well , pretty much any other European parliament ?

The underlined above being my case in point, even now we have pro EU elements , doing exactly that, and using any means necessary to prevent the successful leave vote being carried out, in any way shape or form.
There is simply no deal possible, without 'no deal' being on the table, and if this becomes legally binding, then all the EU have to do , is offer a WA that they know will NEVER pass parliament.
This, BEFORE we even get to the bones of a trade deal, which we would HAVE to accept, no matter how bad or expensive.
This makes remain the more likely default, despite the previous laws passed by the very house trying to usurp them.

But all this is moot, because whats really happening, is the maybe 2/3 rd element of remain MPs have literally stolen the vote from the people.
If this was the real endgame, why didnt they just not have the referendum and vote on it, in house ?
The answer is simple, half the house would have lost their seats next GE , which is where we are now, and theres literally nothing they can do about it.

Labour dont want an election, because they will LOSE seats, of that I have no doubt, they say they are going to 'protect' us from no deal , but what they are trying to do, what they have been doing for the last three and a half years, is protect themselves, and their seats, and doing a pretty bad job of it.
They arent bothered about their electorate or how they voted in the slightest, and neither are the tory rebels.

So when at least half the house, thinks only of themselves, and flatly refuses to enact a national vote result, under the pretence of carrying out the national will, when all they are doing is protecting themselves, then I would say they , and anyone who supports them are guilty of doing what Ive  stated above...Destroying democracy in this country for an institution that doesnt believe in it .

[JohnfromUK]

13 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I was advocating giving Boris time, in that time he has achieved nothing and defeated on every vote. We were right.

To be fair to him (and I wasn't a Boris supporter), if you have no majority, and are dealing with (inherited) controversial issues ......... it would be a miracle if you didn't loose at least some.  Oppositions are there to oppose - and they will always be looking for ways to bring down the government and get a General Election - all oppositions except apparently Corbyn that is.

Edited September 5, 2019 by JohnfromUK

[Scully]

2 hours ago, discobob said:

can we start a petition to get Parliament dissolved because it isn't fit for purpose and doesn't meet its primary role - to represent the people??

Now there’s one I’d sign. 👍

[islandgun]

ooh err ..

removed the link, but just read bank of england said no deal not all that bad

Edited September 5, 2019 by islandgun

[Capt Christopher Jones]

Bozo`s brother has thrown in the towel 

 PM's brother quits as Tory MP and minister

[Mice!]

56 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Indeed. I was advocating giving Boris time, in that time he has achieved nothing and defeated on every vote. We were right.

Problem is its the same bunch of bleating sheep voting.

How can Corbyn say no to a general election? That's his purpose to get labour into power.

Is there no way that Boris can force an election to gain a majority??

[Rewulf]

4 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Is there no way that Boris can force an election to gain a majority??

Theres lots of ways a PM in power can force through things.
An election isnt his first choice though , getting us out is .

This isnt over by a long stretch yet, and timing is crucial.
Once we get over the line, an election will sort out any 'issues' of how the people stand on the matter.
Notice how no one is talking about opinion polls at the moment ?

[Raja Clavata]

58 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

`Ok lets dismantle the question.

 how far are you prepared to damage trust and faith in our political institutions, our democratic rights , to enable staying in an institution that doesnt believe in those rights ?

Can we agree that trust in our politics has been severely damaged?
Are there cries of 'Ill never vote again' ?
This is irrespective of which side of the fence you sit on, AND was evident BEFORE the latest attempts to stop Brexit.

Absolutely! Although some of those crying now will invariably vote in the future.

Next point , can we agree that the EU , as an institution lacks the same type of democratic process that we in this country are used to ?
Its parliament is largely irrelevant, its leaders unelected, and you yourself have largely agreed , any reform of this situation, is at  best ,difficult, whilst mine is that it is pretty much impossible.

Difficult yes but not impossible.

The aims of the so called trade bloc, have drifted in a relative short space of time from trade and standards control, to political and economic control of member states, without a single meaningful vote being given to its 500 million citizens.
More so , any vote on treaty that has been given in rare cases, has never been recognised if it has been negative toward the EU.
So , its  a fair thing to say , the EU is an undemocratic institution, at least when you compare it to , well , pretty much any other European parliament ?

I tend to agree with you just not as vehemently as you on my opinion of the EU. But look at what is happening to our own democracy.

The underlined above being my case in point, even now we have pro EU elements , doing exactly that, and using any means necessary to prevent the successful leave vote being carried out, in any way shape or form.
There is simply no deal possible, without 'no deal' being on the table, and if this becomes legally binding, then all the EU have to do , is offer a WA that they know will NEVER pass parliament.
This, BEFORE we even get to the bones of a trade deal, which we would HAVE to accept, no matter how bad or expensive.
This makes remain the more likely default, despite the previous laws passed by the very house trying to usurp them.

Indeed, the EU are rubbing their hands together, we have shown the rest of the members what a bad idea trying to leave is? But this is more our doing than theirs. Goes back to original referendum flaws.

But all this is moot, because whats really happening, is the maybe 2/3 rd element of remain MPs have literally stolen the vote from the people.
If this was the real endgame, why didnt they just not have the referendum and vote on it, in house ?
The answer is simple, half the house would have lost their seats next GE , which is where we are now, and theres literally nothing they can do about it.

Labour dont want an election, because they will LOSE seats, of that I have no doubt, they say they are going to 'protect' us from no deal , but what they are trying to do, what they have been doing for the last three and a half years, is protect themselves, and their seats, and doing a pretty bad job of it.

Labour have to accept a GE once the no no deal legislation is passed or they are more toast than the Tories.

They arent bothered about their electorate or how they voted in the slightest, and neither are the tory rebels.

haven't the rebels actually demonstrated that they do have integrity? Your opinion here seems a bit too one sided to me?

So when at least half the house, thinks only of themselves, and flatly refuses to enact a national vote result, under the pretence of carrying out the national will, when all they are doing is protecting themselves, then I would say they , and anyone who supports them are guilty of doing what Ive  stated above...Destroying democracy in this country for an institution that doesnt believe in it .

Again how have rebels protected themselves, they were forewarned about the implications of rebelling?

 

[Mice!]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Theres lots of ways a PM in power can force through things.
An election isnt his first choice though , getting us out is .

This isnt over by a long stretch yet, and timing is crucial.
Once we get over the line, an election will sort out any 'issues' of how the people stand on the matter.
Notice how no one is talking about opinion polls at the moment ?

Just watching BBC News, so Boris is effectively 40 votes short of a majority given his 20 MPs not towing the line, I cant see any way this gets sorted without a GE.

Hopefully he continues to goad JC who says he doesn't want a GE then runs a much better campaign than TM did.

[Rewulf]

21 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Labour have to accept a GE once the no no deal legislation is passed or they are more toast than the Tories.

Yes they do, so are they just prolonging the inevitable ?
The remainer MPs have been trying to outlaw no deal for some time now, can you no see that this severely inhibits a negotiating stance with Brussels ?
It has to stay on the table , or we might as well just bend over ...

24 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

haven't the rebels actually demonstrated that they do have integrity? Your opinion here seems a bit too one sided to me?

OK , in what way ?
IF , they have large remainer majorities in their constituency, then they could at least use that as an excuse.

However, I suspect they are really not interested in what their constituents want, even if they could show some kind of evidence of local polling to support their position ?
Its the whole 'I know whats best for you' mentality that grates on many people.
Soubry tried to do a walk around in Nottinghams market square to 'show' how much people disliked the idea of leaving, not her own constituency mind, as its not safe for her to walk the streets there.
Very few people supported her, and there was considerable hostility (this is before the Goddard incident)
Yet the 'rebels' talk about Boris's mandate for no deal ?
Where is their mandate for remain ?

If someone is employed to do a job, a very well paid job at that, one would expect them to do that job for their employer (us)
If they decide that they are going to do a completely different job to that which they were employed for, perhaps even at detriment to their employer, can you honestly say they are acting with integrity ?

36 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Again how have rebels protected themselves, they were forewarned about the implications of rebelling?

Thats a good question.
Arrogance, superiority complex, the prospect of financial or some other reward ?
Its not really rational is it?
Do they think history will judge them as some kind of saviour of the UK , I should think at least some of them think that !

Personally I dont think they CARE enough about what people think of them, which makes them, really the wrong people for the job.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

3 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Just watching BBC News, so Boris is effectively 40 votes short of a majority given his 20 MPs not towing the line, I cant see any way this gets sorted without a GE.

Hopefully he continues to goad JC who says he doesn't want a GE then runs a much better campaign than TM did.

That shouldn't be difficult!

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, Mice! said:

Hopefully he continues to goad JC who says he doesn't want a GE then runs a much better campaign than TM did.

Theres plenty of people who believe she did that deliberately to cause the situation we now find ourselves in.

 

3 minutes ago, Mice! said:

I cant see any way this gets sorted without a GE.

Technically speaking , this situation should lead to a vote of no confidence, which would in turn lead to a GE .
Strange how that hasnt happened isnt it ?

The fact that they havent/darent , leaves BJ in power with prerogative options, and emergency powers.

Its the nuclear button, but these are exceptional circumstances.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

29 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Yes they do, so are they just prolonging the inevitable ?
The remainer MPs have been trying to outlaw no deal for some time now, can you no see that this severely inhibits a negotiating stance with Brussels ?
It has to stay on the table , or we might as well just bend over ...

OK , in what way ?
IF , they have large remainer majorities in their constituency, then they could at least use that as an excuse.

However, I suspect they are really not interested in what their constituents want, even if they could show some kind of evidence of local polling to support their position ?
Its the whole 'I know whats best for you' mentality that grates on many people.
Soubry tried to do a walk around in Nottinghams market square to 'show' how much people disliked the idea of leaving, not her own constituency mind, as its not safe for her to walk the streets there.
Very few people supported her, and there was considerable hostility (this is before the Goddard incident)
Yet the 'rebels' talk about Boris's mandate for no deal ?
Where is their mandate for remain ?

If someone is employed to do a job, a very well paid job at that, one would expect them to do that job for their employer (us)
If they decide that they are going to do a completely different job to that which they were employed for, perhaps even at detriment to their employer, can you honestly say they are acting with integrity ?

Thats a good question.
Arrogance, superiority complex, the prospect of financial or some other reward ?
Its not really rational is it?
Do they think history will judge them as some kind of saviour of the UK , I should think at least some of them think that !

Personally I dont think they CARE enough about what people think of them, which makes them, really the wrong people for the job.

Those people who want to be MPs are exactly the wrong people for the job!

Jo Johnson to stand down as MP, no great loss there then!

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/jo-johnson-quits-as-mp-amid-unresolvable-tension-between-family-loyalty-and-national-interest-a4229691.html

[ratchers]

3 hours ago, Retsdon said:

But there are plainly many MPs who still feel a responsibility to act in the best interests of their constituents and the country at large. It's called doing their job. 

 

 

Dont think so.

270 voting areas returned a majority to leave the EU.

Only 129 voted to remain.

I have not got a problem if a remain areas MP sided with them but when a constituency voted leave and he clearly goes against their wishes, then he must resign his position .

[Mice!]

1 minute ago, ratchers said:

I have not got a problem if a remain areas MP sided with them but when a constituency voted leave and he clearly goes against their wishes, then he must resign his position .

Should resign, unfortunately they won't because they know better.

Has anyone found Oliver yet?

[oowee]

1 hour ago, Mice! said:

Just watching BBC News, so Boris is effectively 40 votes short of a majority given his 20 MPs not towing the line, I cant see any way this gets sorted without a GE.

Hopefully he continues to goad JC who says he doesn't want a GE then runs a much better campaign than TM did.

Is that the 20 mp's he kicked out to make them independents? 

I think Corbyn would be right to say no to a GE until after an extension. He would have destroyed Boris who must leave after requesting an extension. JC would have demonstrated that he has listened to his party and taken a pragmatic approach to the issues. Interesting at PMQ's faced with the Kipper in a tail spin that he kept his cool and certainly looked more like a PM in waiting. 

The kippers antics show him to be that delinquent public school boy that he is. 

Had to laugh at the arrogant pose of Moggy the other night showing his contempt for parliament. They are not helping themselves. 

12 minutes ago, ratchers said:

Dont think so.

270 voting areas returned a majority to leave the EU.

Only 129 voted to remain.

I have not got a problem if a remain areas MP sided with them but when a constituency voted leave and he clearly goes against their wishes, then he must resign his position .

That lets the women off the hook then. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

Is that the 20 mp's he kicked out to make them independents? 

I think Corbyn would be right to say no to a GE until after an extension. He would have destroyed Boris who must leave after requesting an extension. JC would have demonstrated that he has listened to his party and taken a pragmatic approach to the issues. Interesting at PMQ's faced with the Kipper in a tail spin that he kept his cool and certainly looked more like a PM in waiting. 

The kippers antics show him to be that delinquent public school boy that he is. 

Had to laugh at the arrogant pose of Moggy the other night showing his contempt for parliament. They are not helping themselves. 

But he did speek so eliquently!

[oowee]

1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

But he did speek so eliquently!

He was brilliant taking interruptions, flack and parying questions at speed. Most impressive. Then I see him leave home with the family in his Bentley all dressed like they have come out of a 30's film set and i think, 'what a ****'. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

He was brilliant taking interruptions, flack and parying questions at speed. Most impressive. Then I see him leave home with the family in his Bentley all dressed like they have come out of a 30's film set and i think, 'what a ****'. 

You are as ever entitled to your opinion, I think he is a very knowledgeable chap from fine stock!

[hedge]

Found this headline quite a tongue twister:

 

[Mice!]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

Is that the 20 mp's he kicked out to make them independents? 

No think the  torrie bench plus DUP was 298 then Labour plus SNP, independents( shouldn't be allowed to vote?) and all the odds and ends plus 1 green (😄) was 320.

add in the 20 MPs not following orders and Boris isn't going to get any votes through.