BREXIT

[Gordon R]

Citing the results country by country is no different to citing the votes in each constituency. It is just daft. The Referendum was for the UK and the votes are combined. It is a mark of just how desperate remainers are, seeking statistics which suit their case.

There was one vote, the results announced and the moaning started. Mr Nobody and Newbie to this have it summed up.

[KB1]

3 hours ago, oowee said:

Ironic that the EU appears more concerned for the social and economic impact of Brexit on the people of Europe (including the UK)  than the UK Government for it's own people. All as we hear from our political leaders are sound bites that raise a cheer from the masses. It's no wonder team UK comes unstuck when you put them up against a well disciplined and organised team. A team that knows in detail the substance and technicalities of the trade arrangements and the legal framework underpinning them. 

The earlier guardian article nailed it when it said .

The state can no longer undertake the radical planning and intervention that might make Brexit work. That would require not only an expert state, but one closely aligned with business.

 Simply put we have, within government, neither the knowledge or the skills required to deliver a successful outcome to a poorly formed and ill thought out process.

So, you enjoyed the video then👍

[Retsdon]

6 hours ago, Mr_Nobody said:

We've had 3 years of further apocalyptic warnings and yet still the appetite for leaving is undiminished

Despite warning after warning from their doctors plenty of people happily drink or smoke themselves with gusto into an early grave. And as long as they're still alive they rationalize that either a) the warnings are scare-mongering from a namby pamby medical profession, or b) that the pleasures of smoking/drinking are worth the recognized risk - the 'whatever will be will be' defence.

It's human nature not to want to change course.

 

[Yellow Bear]

7 hours ago, Gordon R said:

Citing the results country by country is no different to citing the votes in each constituency

There is no way the remain camp would accept, or even cite, the results constituency by constituency because that was close to 60/40 out.

[Raja Clavata]

9 hours ago, Newbie to this said:

No they didn't, the UK as a whole voted to leave. How individual countries within the UK voted is irrelevant!

Yes they did, and yes the UK as a whole voted to leave.

Persistent denial of facts has contributed to getting us where we are now, along with an inability of the hardcore element of leave to concede anything and compromise in any way.

[Newbie to this]

7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Yes they did, and yes the UK as a whole voted to leave.

Persistent denial of facts has contributed to getting us where we are now, along with an inability of the hardcore element of leave to concede anything and compromise in any way.

It's not denial, (unless you are talking about your denial of facts)

it's a fact that the UK voted as a whole. It's irrelevant how individual countries voted, which is another fact! The people of Scotland and Northern Ireland that voted leave won the vote, that's another fact! How many voted remain in the individual countries make absolutely no difference, they still lost, that's another fact!

Edit - Let's also not forget that Irish citizens with residential status in Northern Ireland (and indeed the whole UK) also had a vote in the referendum, so we will never truly know how the UK citizens of Northern Ireland voted. That's another fact!

Edited October 10, 2019 by Newbie to this

[Raja Clavata]

26 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

It's not denial, (unless you are talking about your denial of facts)

it's a fact that the UK voted as a whole. It's irrelevant how individual countries voted, which is another fact! The people of Scotland and Northern Ireland that voted leave won the vote, that's another fact! How many voted remain in the individual countries make absolutely no difference, they still lost, that's another fact!

Edit - Let's also not forget that Irish citizens with residential status in Northern Ireland (and indeed the whole UK) also had a vote in the referendum, so we will never truly know how the UK citizens of Northern Ireland voted. That's another fact!

I already agreed the UK as a whole voted to leave.

How individual countries voted is irrelevant to the overall result is indeed a fact. But to deny the fact that the overall result has implications for the harmony of the individual countries and their future place / role in the Union really is blinkered in my opinion.

You denied that NI and Scotland voted remain. If you maintain that position then there really is nothing further to discuss on this with you. But I will say again, this "we won you lost" mentality combined with a refusal to compromise will be the undoing of Brexit altogether.

According to a recent poll only 27% of the UK are in favour of a no deal Brexit, so please explain to me how a no deal Brexit without a confirmatory vote by the public is democratic?

[sportsbob]

18 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

According to a recent poll only 27% of the UK are in favour of a no deal Brexit, so please explain to me how a no deal Brexit without a confirmatory vote by the public is democratic?

According to other polls the figure is much higher,  you keep asking for proof that we voted for a no deal Brexit yet you or any of your remain friends have failed to answer any of my questions when asked to provide evidence that we were told before the vote we would have a deal.  

[Newbie to this]

58 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

I already agreed the UK as a whole voted to leave.

How individual countries voted is irrelevant to the overall result is indeed a fact. But to deny the fact that the overall result has implications for the harmony of the individual countries and their future place / role in the Union really is blinkered in my opinion.

You denied that NI and Scotland voted remain. If you maintain that position then there really is nothing further to discuss on this with you. But I will say again, this "we won you lost" mentality combined with a refusal to compromise will be the undoing of Brexit altogether.

According to a recent poll only 27% of the UK are in favour of a no deal Brexit, so please explain to me how a no deal Brexit without a confirmatory vote by the public is democratic?

I denied that it matters how the individual countries voted, the vote was not how individual countries voted but how the UK voted as a whole. You are right in as far as we have nothing further to discuss on this matter. It's quite simple the UK voted as a whole not as individual countries!

I see you ignored the bit about Irish citizens with residential status having a vote in the referendum!!!

I believe that most leavers were in favour of a deal, but due to remainers in May's government (including Her) and Parliament, no good deal is on offer anymore (it was but May as a remainer turned it down for a closer alignment, also known as remaining in all but name.) So when it come to compromise I think you should look closer at the remain camp than the leave camp. I know I don't talk for all Leave voters, but from the threads on here, other social media sites and conversations in everyday life, this is my grasp of leavers with regards of a deal, we would mostly (granted some want no deal regardless) like a good agreement but would accept no deal. It's not all about trade!!!

And it still doesn't take away from the fact that whatever X% voted to leave in Scotland and Northern Ireland, and these are the people that should be considered before any of the remain voters, leave won, remain lost. Since when do the losers have more consideration than those that won!!!! Oh and it's NOT all about trade!!!

Edited October 10, 2019 by Newbie to this

[sportsbob]

9 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Oh and it's NOT all about trade!!!

Quite right, its about immigration, sovereignty, and also the very important fact that is my right given under law as an Englishman to decide how we are governed.

Edited October 10, 2019 by sportsbob

[Newbie to this]

https://brexitcentral.com/four-more-brexit-myths-propagated-by-remainers-that-need-to-be-busted/

 

[Raja Clavata]

14 minutes ago, sportsbob said:

According to other polls the figure is much higher,  you keep asking for proof that we voted for a no deal Brexit yet you or any of your remain friends have failed to answer any of my questions when asked to provide evidence that we were told before the vote we would have a deal.  

Much higher? I have seen up to ~1/3. The proof that not all leave voters voted for no deal is right there and compounded by the fact that the leave vote is undeniably split. I assert that this goes back to the flawed manner in which the referendum was held in the first place.

2 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

https://brexitcentral.com/four-more-brexit-myths-propagated-by-remainers-that-need-to-be-busted/

 

Read it, not in the least bit biased is it, lol.

It's publications like that and the mindset of those who stand behind those views that will be the downfall of Brexit.

Like I have said several times, no issue with Brexit based on a deal agreed by Parliament or if Parliament can't agree then put to the people to decide. I do not see how that can credibly be taken to be a remain fundamentalist position or viewpoint?

[Newbie to this]

11 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Much higher? I have seen up to ~1/3. The proof that not all leave voters voted for no deal is right there and compounded by the fact that the leave vote is undeniably split. I assert that this goes back to the flawed manner in which the referendum was held in the first place.

Read it, not in the least bit biased is it, lol.

It's publications like that and the mindset of those who stand behind those views that will be the downfall of Brexit.

Like I have said several times, no issue with Brexit based on a deal agreed by Parliament or if Parliament can't agree then put to the people to decide. I do not see how that can credibly be taken to be a remain fundamentalist position or viewpoint?

It's about as unbiased as your view point.

[Raja Clavata]

9 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

It's about as unbiased as your view point.

Biased towards a sensible version of Brexit, indeed mea culpa. Do you view that or what you perceive to be my biased viewpoint as one of a remain fundamentalist?

[Demonic69]

27 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Like I have said several times, no issue with Brexit based on a deal agreed by Parliament or if Parliament can't agree then put to the people to decide. I do not see how that can credibly be taken to be a remain fundamentalist position or viewpoint?

Then we'd have to trust Remainers not vote out of spite. As the past several years have shown, the Remain camp can be extremely self-serving and petty (I know, not just them) at times and have intentionally sabotaged any chance of a fair deal with the EU. If both options were fair, No-Deal or a good deal, then the vote would be worth it. As we'll only end up with a rubbish deal, thanks to you know who, the vote would just be to give the Remainers something to congratulate themselves about, regardless of the damage to the country.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Demonic69

[Raja Clavata]

9 minutes ago, Demonic69 said:

Then we'd have to trust Remainers not vote out of spite. As the past several years have shown, the Remain camp can be extremely self-serving and petty (I know, not just them) at times and have intentionally sabotaged any chance of a fair deal with the EU. If both options were fair, No-Deal or a good deal, then the vote would be worth it. As we'll only end up with a rubbish deal, thanks to you know who, the vote would just be to give the Remainers something to congratulate themselves about, regardless of the damage to the country.

Both sides have hardly lit themselves up in glory. No two wrongs make a right. Which side is better or worse is impossible to establish due to impartiality (lack of). A possibly balanced view might be both as bad as oneanother.

I get what you are saying but you can't exclude remainers from voting, so the vote or votes would need to be structured fairly for all.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Raja Clavata
which not wish

[Newbie to this]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Biased towards a sensible version of Brexit, indeed mea culpa. Do you view that or what you perceive to be my biased viewpoint as one of a remain fundamentalist?

We'd all like a sensible version of brexit. Well most, some would remain at any cost and some would like no deal even if a fair agreement was reached.

With regards to your fundamentalist leanings, if you believe that remaining in the EU is an option then yes, you have a anti-democratic fundamentalist leaning.

As I have mentioned before. This is NOT all about trade.

If it was I very much doubt we would be having this conversation, because I hasten to guess that the vote would have been an overwhelming remain.

But the EU is no longer just a trade agreement, if indeed it ever was, hence where we are.

When remainers grasp this fact, they may see where leave voters (granted not all) are coming from. Until then we will just go round in circles discussing the same old arguments, which quite frankly are irrelevant. We voted leave and leave we must. If that means no deal, then so be it!!

But just remember a FTA was offered and remainer May turned it down!!!

Edited October 10, 2019 by Newbie to this

[Dave-G]

I'm quite sure David Cameron and other MP's indicated a leave vote would result in WTO trading. If anyone needs to see the video yet again I could likely dig it out. AND that WE would make the decision - not Parliament.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Dave-G

[Dave-G]

If I flip a coin saying heads win tails lose... and the other side agrees - does heads mean I only won a little bit?  

 

This is what is driving the absolute voter anger, the duplicity of MP's who made and played one set of rules then crapped all over them when they lost.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Dave-G

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said:

Like I have said several times, no issue with Brexit based on a deal agreed by Parliament or if Parliament can't agree then put to the people to decide. I do not see how that can credibly be taken to be a remain fundamentalist position or viewpoint?

So you want to see another referendum ? Whatever that might prove ,as Ive said before, a slim majority either way wont cut it really will it, it needs to be a 10 point minimum .

But thats not really the point.
If remain win, there will be uproar.
If leave win, again, we are no further on, many elements in parliament have already said they wont accept it !

But heres the really interesting bit that no one seems to have mentioned.
At the moment , the opposition, made up mainly of remainers, have a 45 person majority.
They could easily, with the help of the 'impartial' remain speaker, pass a motion for a 2nd referendum, and win it, forcing one.
This could force a delay too, possibly, though the hour is short, they COULD have done it WEEKS ago !?]

Strange isnt it ?

Well no not really, again , as Ive already said, this leads down a path to uncertain results...and a general election , with a now even more furious populace.
The political parties have access to far better polling data than us mere mortals, and the numbers dont look good for remain, or labour.

Like Ive said several times now, but it just doesnt seem to be sinking in..
There is a very good reason why another referendum hasnt been called, or a GE , its because labour and remain, simply cant win it.
They do not have the NUMBERS.

 

[Gordon R]

Despite the clamour for a second Referendum, it would be political suicide for the Tories. If it wasn't so pathetic, I would welcome a second vote, just to shut the Remoaners up. I can hear them now saying why don't we have one then. They have lost and it is their only option.

In a vote for in or out, you could never please all the people - cue Remoaners saying there should have been more choices.

Some say both sides should compromise. I would be interested in hearing what compromise would Remoaners make, which didn't involve remaining in the EU.

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Gordon R

[Newbie to this]

Absolutely!!!

 

[Rewulf]

5 minutes ago, Newbie to this said:

Absolutely!!!

I cant believe , they are still coming out with that tired old 'you didnt know what you were voting for ' line , 3.5 years later !
Funny how patronising people, and insulting their intelligence hasnt had the desired effect isnt it ? 

[Raja Clavata]

3.5 years later and the Cons are still trying to neutralise the Brexit Party, the referendum happened because of this threat and the Cons leadership appear ready to take us out on no deal for the same reasons. 

[Rewulf]

Oh joy , the vibrant colours of diversity intensify !

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/erdogan-syria-turkey-kurds-europe-refugees-invasion-sdf-latest-middle-east-a9150271.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR0qhO-swBnPdKoYcwr-4pDZKSxD4KjIHFj5FzJ-o-Rt2AVZvXKwRbK-tng#Echobox=1570704593

I suppose Erdogan, with his US leverage could hold Europe to ransom about a lot of things with his 3.5 million strong refugee army.
He already has a customs union agreement with the EU , and will likely have a visa free travel agreement soon..HANG ON A MINUTE ! He has customs union access, and hes not an EU member, does he have to pay for it , NO ! WTA...