BREXIT

[Capt Christopher Jones]

45 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Good, because I never liked the idea of leaving NI behind.

I rather suspect its all a red herring anyway, to be seemed as offering a compromise, knowing full well the EU wouldnt buy into it anyway.
But, making us look like we are trying, thats why, when it was  said that the EU saw 'progress' Mr Dodds got ready to put the kibosh on it.

The EU want nothing less than the UK remaining (prisoner like) in the bloc.
Unless we take the May BRINO deal , where they get 4 years worth of budget payments, and a ever ending deal negotiation, that promises to annexe NI at some point or other.
Its a deal designed to fail, always was...
I really dont think youve worked out how bad they dont want us to leave yet.
The question you really have to ask is ,why ?

Be prepared for yet more games in the coming weeks, but its pretty clear that a deal that benefits us in any way , pretty much any deal, is not possible given the EU attitude.
So if I were you Id prepare for a WTO Brexit on Halloween.
So make sure you have 2 years worth of food , water, and weaponry to fight Mad Max style across Western Europe 

I wonder if Germany still wants economic migrants ?

Are you thinking of moving ????   😂

[Rewulf]

59 minutes ago, Capt Christopher Jones said:

Are you thinking of moving ????   😂

Nah , Im thinking if it gets really bad here, all those that dont feel like working, and integrating into re building British society , might be better off in Gros Deutchland as an eco migrant ?
Or maybe joining young Greta in Sweden, I hear they have a lovely laid back , diverse society there, well, for the moment they have ..

 

[Raja Clavata]

4 hours ago, Dave-G said:

Most of the cabbies in UK cities are going to be voting Labour given there's barely an Englishman amongst them - that's plain fact that anyone can see with no racism implied or meant. I was one of the rarely seen last English cabbies in Leicester and several of my customers commented on that fact without being prompted.

Indeed, not quite so bad in London due to black cabs.

To be honest I do not know nor have I met an English cabbie who didn’t vote leave.

That said I know a couple who now wish to remain.

19 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Nah , Im thinking if it gets really bad here, all those that dont feel like working, and integrating into re building British society , might be better off in Gros Deutchland as an eco migrant ?
Or maybe joining young Greta in Sweden, I hear they have a lovely laid back , diverse society there, well, for the moment they have ..

 

Rebuilding British society, is this confirmation that Brexit is indeed the thin end of the wedge for some?

[Scully]

On 12/10/2019 at 17:57, Retsdon said:

The same. What are your thoughts on the topic?

I'm not really too bothered about people buying second homes, as most around here are bought in the outlying villages where there is no work for the next generation. With no local bus service they are forced to move into town usually, and I then get employed by those wealthy southerners who want work doing in their second homes. 🙂

As for foreigners moving here. If they're qualified and willing to work then I have no problem; the aspect of moving from a place with a lower income and therefore lower costs doesn't really have any advantage, as once they're here ( unless they're sending money back home ) they'll be paying the same as anyone else living here. 

[Newbie to this]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1190407/Brexit-news-UK-EU-Angela-Merkel-Boris-Johnson-Brexit-deal-latest-update/

[Rewulf]

16 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

 

Rebuilding British society, is this confirmation that Brexit is indeed the thin end of the wedge for some?

Not quite the answer youre looking for , but have a read of this.

'Look at this picture. Really look at it.
I lived through all those years. I remember being a kid, living on strike pay. I remember the hard times. I remember the days before Thatcher.
When she came to power, this Country was finished. It was a mess. An absolute shambles, destroying itself from within. And then this lady came along.
When she came to power, a load of doddering fools ran the City. Working in jobs that they were given through accident of birth. When she left power, ambitious working class people were running the show. Tradesmen were millionaires, people who wanted it could achieve anything. The sky was the limit.
I went from living in a society where owning your own home was an improbability, to owning your home was normal. She changed the world. In more ways than many people realise.
Funnily enough, most people don’t realise she was an ordinary working class girl, who won scholarships, and fought her way to the top. Margaret Thatcher achieved the unachievable, then opened up society so that others could do it as well.
And her thanks for it, was to be stabbed in the back, over the EU project. This is the reality of what we have fought against for so many years. I can only take heart in the fact that the man who hated her the most, Heseltine, is heading towards obscurity in history. No one will remember him.
If you ever doubt the forces ranged against us, look at this picture. The Prime Minister who took this Country by the scruff of the neck, shook it to its senses and turned us into an economic powerhouse, was knifed in public, by those who wish to impose the European project on us all.'

 

There are people now , as there were then, that are that enthralled, that woven into, the EU project for one state Europe, that they are prepared to do virtually ANYTHING to make sure the project remains alive.
Its NOT a trading agreement, its NOT an amalgamation of laws.

Its a political and economic  project, with a European superstate as its aim,  it always was, and always will be, as long as it exists, make NO mistakes here.

If you want to be ruled from Brussels/Strasborg , by an unelected failed politician/dictator , or worse, an unelected untried civil servant, keep pushing remain.
But you will be voting for the end of the UK as a sovereign nation.

Thatcher saw it coming, she saw the EEC start the process of 'ever closer union' and she didnt like the look of it , back then it was the tories that were more pro EU than labour, and they made sure she was removed.
Maybe it was her time to go, but observe the lesson here, they will pull out all legal, political and economic stops to stop Brexit from happening.

They (The EU) dont want a deal, talk of deals is to blindside and confuse, they want us to do nothing less than ignore the vote and remain.
Boris , unlike May , knows this , and is doing the same back to them, he sees no deal as the only real option to satisfy MOST of the population.
The alternative is to severely anger MOST of the population .

In his position , what would you do ?

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Well said Mate.

[JohnfromUK]

45 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

In his position , what would you do ?

The issue is not 'what' would you (or Boris) do?

The issue is what can he do?

He has no backing from Parliament for anything; It seems quite possible that his 'deal' will be rejected by Parliament; Only this morning I read that Michel Barnier is playing hardball and demanding more concessions - which are likely to be rejected by the DUP (and therefore very probably some of the ERG).  Barnier knows that Boris's ONLY chance of getting Brexit (and even possibly by 31st October) is that deal.  If he stops that deal - we in effect end up Remaining.  Without leaving on 31st, Boris's time at No 10 may be at an end - he has pinned his hopes on it.

Barnier is in a STRONG position because he has his 'masters' full backing and support.  He can sit back and demand - and if it all falls through and we can't leave - his masters will be very satisfied.

Boris (and May before in fact) are in a very WEAK position because they are continuously undermined by Parliament.  Others (like Corbyn and the Labour party) who promised to honour the referendum have backtracked.  All in all - he is unlikely to get anything over the line (especially not a 'no deal') and may have to go and beg for an extension as set by the plotting rebels in Parliament in the Benn act.  He can't get a General Election and let the people choose who should govern because Corbyn is blocking it under this utterly bizarre rule where the timing of an election is down to the leader of the opposition (and we have one who is and has always been a disrupter and not ever constructive).

Edited October 14, 2019 by JohnfromUK

[Rewulf]

Just now, JohnfromUK said:

The issue is what can he do?

Push through no deal, its the only sensible way now.

 

1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

He has no backing from Parliament for anything; It seems quite possible that his 'deal' will be rejected by Parliament;

Legally (the irony of giving our laws to Brussels) he doesnt need backing or vote consent.

 

2 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Only this morning I read that Michel Barnier is playing hardball and demanding more concessions - which are likely to be rejected by the DUP (and therefore very probably some of the ERG).  Barnier knows that Boris's ONLY chance of getting Brexit (and even possibly by 31st October) is that deal.  If he stops that deal - we in effect end up Remaining.  Without leaving on 31st, Boris's time at No 10 may be at an end - he has pinned his hopes on it.

Boris need to do literally NOTHING to put us out with no deal.
Thats why the remainers are trying legally to force him to do SOMETHING.

Those 'somethings' are doomed to fail.
A .Because both sides WANT them to fail.
B. Remain isnt an option anymore, it hasnt been since June 2016, the sooner people realise that the referendum vote isnt going to disappear into a footnote of history, the better.
C. Those somethings will destroy the parties trying to make them happen, if Boris is foolish enough to countenance any of the sort of deal they are talking, it will destroy him and the tories too.

I really dont think hes that stupid.

9 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Barnier is in a STRONG position because he has his 'masters' full backing and support.  He can sit back and demand - and if it all falls through and we can't leave - his masters will be very satisfied.

 

No hes not, he has been given an impossible task !
Make the UK stay in the EU , against the direct wishes of the majority, OR make the UK break up the union, causing untold grief (ie NOT going to happen)

11 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Boris (and May before in fact) are in a very WEAK position because they are continuously undermined by Parliament

Again I disagree, Boris doesnt need the backing of parliament to push no deal, he needs parliament to back a DEAL , which they wont !
The opposition say they dont want no deal, but they refuse to countenance a deal ??

All this played out in front of the people , whose faith is further eroded by their antics.

In the end , they will support the PM , who appears to be doing the right thing by them.
May surrendered , Hes fighting the EU  , this is always a favoured trait among Brits, hes offered a GE ,what more can he do  ?
 

[JohnfromUK]

20 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Boris need to do literally NOTHING to put us out with no deal.
Thats why the remainers are trying legally to force him to do SOMETHING.

He is likely to be compelled to ask for a delay (I don't agree with it, but that is what the new law requires)

 

22 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

No hes not, he has been given an impossible task !

That depends on what task he has actually been given.  I think he has been told to make the UKs exit near impossible and if it does happen, to be a 'punishment and humiliation' to the UK government.  My personal view is that he will push Boris into a deal that will not get passed Parliament.  Boris will then be humiliated by having to ask for an extension (greatly against his wishes) and whilst he is smarting from that either

1. Corbyn (backed by SNP, LibDems, possibly some Tories) will end up as a 'caretaker' PM.
2. or there will be a General election which will be at a bad time for Boris due to having lost on 'the deal' and having been forced to ask for an election.  That may result in (yet another) non majority parliament, in which case a coalition for Boris with anyone other than the DUP won't be possible because all the other parties are committed remainers.

 

23 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Make the UK stay in the EU , against the direct wishes of the majority

So far - it has happened and the UK has not exited - despite a date having been set and agreed (31st March 2019)

 

25 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

In the end , they will support the PM , who appears to be doing the right thing by them.

I agree - but they won't let the PM have an election.  Not until they have rubbed his nose in the dirt in the hope that it will damage him with the electorate.

 

26 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Hes fighting the EU  , this is always a favoured trait among Brits, hes offered a GE ,what more can he do  ?

He is fighting the EU, but he may already have given enough to the EU to loose support from the DUP and (some of) the ERG.  He has begged for a GE (which I'm sure he could win), but control of that is not in his hands.

He IS still be fighting - but he's cornered - and it is difficult to see how he can fight his way out.

Ultimately - he (as PM) isn't in control - he has no majority - that has been seized by a rebel Parliament who have been enabled by a biassed Speaker.

I'm not supporting it - quite the reverse, but I am telling it the way I think it is.

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

He is likely to be compelled to ask for a delay (I don't agree with it, but that is what the new law requires)

 

It can't happen. He will be dead in a ditch somewhere. 

[JohnfromUK]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

He will be dead in a ditch somewhere

Politicians don't do ditches ..........

more 'drain material'.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

It can't happen. He will be dead in a ditch somewhere. 

No, he will have a way round all the pointless time wasting.

We are on our way out, just like the democratically voted for referrendum result!

Edited October 14, 2019 by TIGHTCHOKE

[JohnfromUK]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

We are on our way out, just like the democratically voted for referrendum result!

We should be on our way out - but the Government has lost control of what is happening (by having no majority) and in effect a rabble of Parliamentary rebels who don't want 'out' are in effective charge.

[oowee]

Just now, TIGHTCHOKE said:

No, he will have a way round all thet pointless time wasting.

We are on our way out, just like the democratically voted for referrendum result!

One way or another I am sure we are. Why not cut out the ten years or so of carp, recognise the reality of what we want from a deal, the implications of the ref and sign up for a BRINO deal now? 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

One way or another I am sure we are. Why not cut out the ten years or so of carp, recognise the reality of what we want from a deal, the implications of the ref and sign up for a BRINO deal now? 

No, much rather get out without a deal and then see if any other countries follow us out.

The House of Cards will fall!

[B725]

Has anyone worked out how many £millions the last three years have been wasted. Each time remoaners block thing's it just adds more wasted money. 

[oowee]

5 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

No, much rather get out without a deal and then see if any other countries follow us out.

The House of Cards will fall!

 As soon as we are out we will be working our way back in. Take my word for it. 

3 minutes ago, B725 said:

Has anyone worked out how many £millions the last three years have been wasted. Each time remoaners block thing's it just adds more wasted money. 

No but it must be huge. But hey, the quiters knew what they were voting for🤣. Well that's what they said.

[Raja Clavata]

1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

Not quite the answer youre looking for , but have a read of this.

'Look at this picture. Really look at it.
I lived through all those years. I remember being a kid, living on strike pay. I remember the hard times. I remember the days before Thatcher.
When she came to power, this Country was finished. It was a mess. An absolute shambles, destroying itself from within. And then this lady came along.
When she came to power, a load of doddering fools ran the City. Working in jobs that they were given through accident of birth. When she left power, ambitious working class people were running the show. Tradesmen were millionaires, people who wanted it could achieve anything. The sky was the limit.
I went from living in a society where owning your own home was an improbability, to owning your home was normal. She changed the world. In more ways than many people realise.
Funnily enough, most people don’t realise she was an ordinary working class girl, who won scholarships, and fought her way to the top. Margaret Thatcher achieved the unachievable, then opened up society so that others could do it as well.
And her thanks for it, was to be stabbed in the back, over the EU project. This is the reality of what we have fought against for so many years. I can only take heart in the fact that the man who hated her the most, Heseltine, is heading towards obscurity in history. No one will remember him.
If you ever doubt the forces ranged against us, look at this picture. The Prime Minister who took this Country by the scruff of the neck, shook it to its senses and turned us into an economic powerhouse, was knifed in public, by those who wish to impose the European project on us all.'

 

There are people now , as there were then, that are that enthralled, that woven into, the EU project for one state Europe, that they are prepared to do virtually ANYTHING to make sure the project remains alive.
Its NOT a trading agreement, its NOT an amalgamation of laws.

Its a political and economic  project, with a European superstate as its aim,  it always was, and always will be, as long as it exists, make NO mistakes here.

If you want to be ruled from Brussels/Strasborg , by an unelected failed politician/dictator , or worse, an unelected untried civil servant, keep pushing remain.
But you will be voting for the end of the UK as a sovereign nation.

Thatcher saw it coming, she saw the EEC start the process of 'ever closer union' and she didnt like the look of it , back then it was the tories that were more pro EU than labour, and they made sure she was removed.
Maybe it was her time to go, but observe the lesson here, they will pull out all legal, political and economic stops to stop Brexit from happening.

They (The EU) dont want a deal, talk of deals is to blindside and confuse, they want us to do nothing less than ignore the vote and remain.
Boris , unlike May , knows this , and is doing the same back to them, he sees no deal as the only real option to satisfy MOST of the population.
The alternative is to severely anger MOST of the population .

In his position , what would you do ?

Good post (on Thatcher) and I respect your opinions on this but as you suggested you've provided a good response to a different question, anyhow...

I have a lot of time for what Thatcher did, in a way of I was one of those archetypal Essex men and it was indeed her that saw my immediate family switch from traditional labour voters to conservative, despite my father being somewhat of a Union man.

Regarding stabbing in the back, I believe that's true of Howe whereas Heseltine stabbed her in the front.

The thing is that that was then and this is now, there's no way of knowing what she'd make of it all currently.

For all the rhetoric in response to the doom sayers on no deal we still haven't heard how things are going to be better if we leave with no deal, any notion of Britain as an economic powerhouse is right up there with the fairies to be honest. Again, I ask, how will things be better?

Where's the data to support this MOST argument, don't try and spin it around 52%?

PS - that Express article might well have been written by Brexit Central 🙄

[Mice!]

No surprise Margret Thatcher was knifed in 1990 then the Euro gets brought in afterwards. I'm sure had we ditched the pound for the Euro we wouldn't be in a position to have a choice.

Just get out why we can, others will follow.

[Rewulf]

26 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

any notion of Britain as an economic powerhouse is right up there with the fairies to be honest.

Do the fairies contribute as much to the EU ?

7th largest GDP

7th best country in the world to live in . https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-best-countries-to-live-in-the-world.html

So we do something right, we do social justice, diversity right , we do the NHS , we have one of the best social states, we have HISTORY , like no other country on the planet.
Cant be such a bad place can it ?

37 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

PS - that Express article might well have been written by Brexit Central 🙄

What express article ?

 

[oowee]

11 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Do the fairies contribute as much to the EU ?

7th largest GDP

7th best country in the world to live in . https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-best-countries-to-live-in-the-world.html

So we do something right, we do social justice, diversity right , we do the NHS , we have one of the best social states, we have HISTORY , like no other country on the planet.
Cant be such a bad place can it ?

What express article ?

 

Yep being in the EU has paid huge dividends. Shame to waste it. 

[Retsdon]

2 hours ago, JohnfromUK said:

Only this morning I read that Michel Barnier is playing hardball and demanding more concessions -

He's not demanding concessions. He's saying - as he's been saying all along but some people haven't been listening -  that he has no mandate to agree a deal that is in contravention of the fundamental legal tenets that underpin the Single Market. You'd have thought that when the EU, and later Barnier, have been unswervingly saying the same thing since before the Brexit vote, that it might actually have sunk in by this time.

Apparently not. And that's why Brexit is such a mess. When, after three years, the British government seemingly haven't yet understood the EU's red lines then there's not much hope for an agreement. The UK is like someone who keeps bringing a dog and wanting to enter it into a gymkhana  - then gets upset and hurt when the people with horses in the competition won't let it compete.

After, what is probably the 3rd time, you'd have thought that it would have dawned on this government that a dog won't answer their needs. But no - here comes the same mutt with a different coat on....

[TIGHTCHOKE]

1 minute ago, Retsdon said:

He's not demanding concessions. He's saying - as he's been saying all along but some people haven't been listening -  that he has no mandate to agree a deal that is in contravention of the fundamental legal tenets that underpin the Single Market. You'd have thought that when the EU, and later Barnier, have been unswervingly saying the same thing since before the Brexit vote, that it might actually have sunk in by this time.

Apparently not. And that's why Brexit is such a mess. When, after three years, the British government seemingly haven't yet understood the EU's red lines then there's not much hope for an agreement. The UK is like someone who keeps bringing a dog and wanting to enter it into a gymkhana  - then gets upset and hurt when the people with horses in the competition won't let it compete.

After, what is probably the 3rd time, you'd have thought that it would have dawned on this government that a dog won't answer their needs. But no - here comes the same mutt with a different coat on....

Oh it has sunk in to some of us, so let's go with NO DEAL!

[Raja Clavata]

14 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Do the fairies contribute as much to the EU ?

7th largest GDP

7th best country in the world to live in . https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-best-countries-to-live-in-the-world.html

So we do something right, we do social justice, diversity right , we do the NHS , we have one of the best social states, we have HISTORY , like no other country on the planet.
Cant be such a bad place can it ?

Again, where is the data / model to suggest that we'd be better off if we'd taken a different course ~40 years ago?

What exactly is it you are trying to move us towards (putting aside the argument of whether it's a forwards or backwards step) - I assume you don't want to take us to the same place JRM appears to want to?