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JohnfromUK
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1 hour ago, Rewulf said:

I think it illustrates how little real support there is for remaining these days, especially if this process takes much longer, like it sounds like it will.

The good new is this, IF we extend, and Im not sure thats whats going to happen, we get a GE , then labour gets destroyed.

So every cloud and such...

No issue with the point about Labour although a second referendum prior to the GE would be in everybodys interest.

If you do the math you find that 44% of all the people who voted in the referendum are currently in favour of either leaving with no deal or 'leaving' with Mays deal. Then of course there is the 28% who didn't bother to vote at all. If your predictions are right your lot would walk a second pop at this...

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6 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

although a second referendum prior to the GE would be in everybodys interest.

Utter waste of time, cost and effort.

The present government is paralysed.  It has no majority and can't do anything.  It can't even go to the country for a General Election because the fixed term Parliament act means it needs a 2/3 majority to do so - and Corbyn says he wants an election, but then whips his party to vote against it.

The way forward is an immediate General Election.  Everybody knows where most of the parties stand on Brexit;

  • Tories to leave
  • LibDems, Independence Group (or whatever they are called this week), Greens, Plaid Cymru and SNP to remain
  • Labour to sit on the fence and possibly have a referendum and possibly campaign to remain in that referendum - depends who you ask.  Diane Abbott wants to carry out the referendum result but will campaign for remain!  Corbyn wants to leave - but will hold a vote in which most of his party will campaign against him.
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1 minute ago, JohnfromUK said:

Utter waste of time, cost and effort.

The present government is paralysed.  It has no majority and can't do anything.  It can't even go to the country for a General Election because the fixed term Parliament act means it needs a 2/3 majority to do so - and Corbyn says he wants an election, but then whips his party to vote against it.

The way forward is an immediate General Election.  Everybody knows where most of the parties stand on Brexit;

  • Tories to leave
  • LibDems, Independence Group (or whatever they are called this week), Greens, Plaid Cymru and SNP to remain
  • Labour to sit on the fence and possibly have a referendum and possibly campaign to remain in that referendum - depends who you ask.  Diane Abbott wants to carry out the referendum result but will campaign for remain!  Corbyn wants to leave - but will hold a vote in which most of his party will campaign against him.

Tories to leave or tories to leave with a deal? 

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Just now, oowee said:

Tories to leave or tories to leave with a deal? 

I guess that depend on what 'deal' if any emerges between now and the GE.  It will be a deal if there is one - and no deal if there is no deal.  I can guarantee it won't be remain.

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11 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

No issue with the point about Labour although a second referendum prior to the GE would be in everybodys interest.

But its not in EVERYBODYS interest because....

12 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

If your predictions are right your lot would walk a second pop at this...

So its not going to happen.

Its really just a stalling tactic, waiting for some event thats not going to happen...

At the end of the day labour shout for a second Ref because they know that a GE is going to murder them outside of London.
They are in a really bad position, YET they constantly try to make out its Boris in the bad position.

He has (with the help of the dark lord of Leave) outplayed them at every turn, now they have no where to go.

If I was labour right now, I would keep my gob shut, let no deal happen, and keep their majority as long as they can, whilst hoping the no deal scenario playing out hurts the tories, and disbands the BP.
But judging by their strategic planning so far, theres no chance of that happening.
Im given to wondering if Corbyn is actually aiding and abetting Brexit deliberately here ?

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3 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

No deal and as soon as possible!

If Boris DOES ask for an extension , and more importantly gets a unanimous granting of it.( Has he made promises to one of the more Eurosceptic countries in return for a veto ??)

Corbyn has promised a GE, I think he knows how that will pan out, and it doesnt look good for his future leadership :lol:

With a majority back in the house, and a more unified tory party, then we can talk business with the EU , and I dont mean the deal on the table now.

Dont forget the DUP have an effective veto over this deal, and they already said they wouldnt stand for a customs border with the UK.So personally I see this latest attempt at diplomacy as more of a tactic than a genuine attempt to reach common ground.

All steady as she goes Capn. :yes:

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14 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

If Boris DOES ask for an extension , and more importantly gets a unanimous granting of it.( Has he made promises to one of the more Eurosceptic countries in return for a veto ??)

Corbyn has promised a GE, I think he knows how that will pan out, and it doesnt look good for his future leadership :lol:

With a majority back in the house, and a more unified tory party, then we can talk business with the EU , and I dont mean the deal on the table now.

Dont forget the DUP have an effective veto over this deal, and they already said they wouldnt stand for a customs border with the UK.So personally I see this latest attempt at diplomacy as more of a tactic than a genuine attempt to reach common ground.

All steady as she goes Capn. :yes:

Sounds like a good move. Go for a GE on a leave at any cost mandate and abandon the traditional tory big business backers. Go head to head with the Brexit party and split your vote. Stab your DUP partners in the back along the way. Every day that goes by leave voters are dying and remain voters are being born. Let alone the EU conversions. Looks like another hung parliament to me but split even more ways than now. 

A second ref is surely the democratic and decisive way to go. 

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Seriously ? They went to court so they could continue to debate Brexit, then didnt bother discussing Brexit at all. :lol:

Then when a deal gets mentioned, they tell everyone not to vote for it, WHATEVER it might be :lol:

Now they dont even want the vote on it to go ahead at all :lol:

Anyone would think they just wanted to remain, whatever the people voted, and whatever they campaigned on in 2017 :lol:

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1 minute ago, oowee said:

A second ref is surely the democratic and decisive way to go. 

:lol::lol: So why dont they VOTE for it then ? They have a 45 pax MAJORITY ! :lol::lol:

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55 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said:

Utter waste of time, cost and effort.

If Boris comes back with a deal and it passes through Parliament then I agree but I was working on the basis that he won't.

In the case that he doesn't then it serves the purpose of providing clarity on where the public actually stand currently, follow that with a GE and the new government would have a mandate to execute it expediently.

Let's face it, it's highly improbable that a second, refined, referendum delivering a leave with no deal public vote would subsequently lead to a Labour government to execute it.

This isn't about Labour, Cons, Lib Dems, Brexit Party or any others - it's about getting resolution on Brexit.

At this stage, as long as we avoid no deal I really don't care what else prevails, as long as something prevails...

5 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

Why be competent when incompetence keeps you in your job longer? I'm in favour of a second referendum, but I think what I'd really prefer given the choice is a function Parliament!

Agreed, they have completely lost their way and all sides are making it up as they go along. A second referendum resets what the public want and they will either have to shape up or ship out.

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1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

This isn't about Labour, Cons, Lib Dems, Brexit Party or any others - it's about getting resolution on Brexit.

But it IS - because the parties positions (possibly apart from Labour) are clearly sided about Brexit

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32 minutes ago, oowee said:

Sounds like a good move. Go for a GE on a leave at any cost mandate and abandon the traditional tory big business backers. Go head to head with the Brexit party and split your vote. Stab your DUP partners in the back along the way. Every day that goes by leave voters are dying and remain voters are being born. Let alone the EU conversions. Looks like another hung parliament to me but split even more ways than now. 

A second ref is surely the democratic and decisive way to go. 

You are normally quite sensible, but can you explain why you feel the highlighted point above does anything other than make you look extremely stupid?

Leave and remain voters will be dying and any newborn will have to wait 18 years to vote!

Come on, justify your statement please.

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12 minutes ago, chrisjpainter said:

Why be competent when incompetence keeps you in your job longer? I'm in favour of a second referendum, but I think what I'd really prefer given the choice is a function Parliament!

True , but until Brexit is sorted, this parliament is paralysed with it.

 

9 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

If Boris comes back with a deal and it passes through Parliament then I agree but I was working on the basis that he won't.

In the case that he doesn't then it serves the purpose of providing clarity on where the public actually stand currently, follow that with a GE and the new government would have a mandate to execute it expediently.

Thats going to achieve what ? Weve already had this conversation.
Say its 52 -48 again EITHER way , is that clear ? Slightly more , slightly less, the remain parties have already said they wont honour it !
THEN you say have a GE after it , with the winning party ,who could literally run it again on a different deal or format, makes no sense.

Let's face it, it's highly improbable that a second, refined, referendum delivering a leave with no deal public vote would subsequently lead to a Labour government to execute it.
Whatever it defined , they would still have  a house majority who would flatly refuse a GE ?

This isn't about Labour, Cons, Lib Dems, Brexit Party or any others - it's about getting resolution on Brexit.
Of course its about them , over half of the MPs want remain, but it was A PEOPLES VOTE that they wont honour, now they want A PEOPLES VOTE with the questions rigged, because they know they cant win it fairly.

At this stage, as long as we avoid no deal I really don't care what else prevails, as long as something prevails...
No deal is the best hope for unity, everything else will follow after that, anything but that promises more conflict.

Agreed, they have completely lost their way and all sides are making it up as they go along. A second referendum resets what the public want and they will either have to shape up or ship out.

GE then , let the people decide who leads them, oh wait :lol: , half the house dont want the PEOPLE  to vote, as they have been very naughty politicians.

 

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1 minute ago, Capt Christopher Jones said:

It seems Bozo has writted a letter already, now just need to buy a stamp

Hes required by law to deliver the letter asking for an extension, that is all.

Why do you think the 6 jolly remainers went to Brussels this morning ?
They went to make sure Brussels grants it, but 27 countries need to agree to it. Thats 27 possible vetos, and every last one of those possibilities leads to a no deal exit on Halloween.

But what about the deal ?
The remainers dont want a deal, the EU doesnt want a deal , Im unconvinced Boris wants a deal!
The Irish , North and south, who hold the key to acceptance of this deal, do they want it ? I dont think so.

So Boris sends the letter, the EU accepts and grants it, we have a GE , maybe a 2nd ref too ?
How do you think thats going to work , massive labour/ lib dem win ?:lol: Landslide vote to remain ?

A plague of unicorns ?

So where does that leave the dream of ignoring the ref result ? 

 

https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/breakthrough-or-bluff-two-views-on-boriss-backstop/?fbclid=IwAR3iiNmT7zZBoFHhilS1JEwpszYmeRTP-62iZS-PJbsHR2DFpN4cnLOxyCY

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1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

You are normally quite sensible, but can you explain why you feel the highlighted point above does anything other than make you look extremely stupid?

Leave and remain voters will be dying and any newborn will have to wait 18 years to vote!

Come on, justify your statement please.

Born ; began to exist. 

32 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Hes required by law to deliver the letter asking for an extension, that is all.

Why do you think the 6 jolly remainers went to Brussels this morning ?
They went to make sure Brussels grants it, but 27 countries need to agree to it. Thats 27 possible vetos, and every last one of those possibilities leads to a no deal exit on Halloween.

But what about the deal ?
The remainers dont want a deal, the EU doesnt want a deal , Im unconvinced Boris wants a deal!
The Irish , North and south, who hold the key to acceptance of this deal, do they want it ? I dont think so.

So Boris sends the letter, the EU accepts and grants it, we have a GE , maybe a 2nd ref too ?
How do you think thats going to work , massive labour/ lib dem win ?:lol: Landslide vote to remain ?

A plague of unicorns ?

So where does that leave the dream of ignoring the ref result ? 

 

https://www.conservativewoman.co.uk/breakthrough-or-bluff-two-views-on-boriss-backstop/?fbclid=IwAR3iiNmT7zZBoFHhilS1JEwpszYmeRTP-62iZS-PJbsHR2DFpN4cnLOxyCY

Do you want the May deal with tweaks? 

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6 minutes ago, Capt Christopher Jones said:

Are Unicorns on the GL

Only if you vote Brexit party or Conservative.

Vote labour or lib dem , greens ect , you get to become involuntary vegan, and all guns will be banned.
All knives will be made out of wood, and your boat will be used by trusted commissars to ferry 3rd world migrants over the channel.

Vote sensibly :yes:

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

Do you want the May deal with tweaks? 

No , but its a start point to negotiate properly.

If it doesnt work out , we can scrap it and go WTO.

 

Like I say , I dont believe thats the way its going to pan out anyway.
 

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If no deal is agreed, Boris should send a letter to the EU asking for an extension of one day! If deal is not agreed by one minute to midnight on that day.....he should advise that at one minute after midnight on that day, the UK leaves the EU without a “deal”....

He has complied with Legal responsibilities imposed by the Benn surrender Act...............and gotten us out of the EU!......Job done!

Edited by panoma1
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1 minute ago, panoma1 said:

If no deal is agreed, Boris should send a letter to the EU asking for an extension of one day! If no deal is agreed by one minute to midnight on that day.....he should advise that at one minute after midnight on that day, the UK leaves the EU with or without a “deal”....

He has complied with Legal responsibilities imposed by the Benn surrender Act...............and gotten us out of the EU!......Job done!

No deal will not be agreed. It may happen and we may fall out but it wont be agreed. Do we really want such momentous decisions to happen by default rather than choice? 

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Just now, oowee said:

No deal will not be agreed. It may happen and we may fall out but it wont be agreed. Do we really want such momentous decisions to happen by default rather than choice? 

You know full well that in my posting, no deal meant leaving without deal being agreed, not agreeing to leave without a deal! We all know that the remainer UK Parliament won’t agree to leaving without a deal.......so I’d rather it happened by default, than let traitors overturn democracy!

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