oowee Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Whys that then , just re run Leave /remain, what does that prove ? Filter vote. If not this then that. Rest of the civilised world manages it why can't we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, oowee said: Filter vote. If not this then that. Rest of the civilised world manages it why can't we? Rest of the civilised world honours the first vote too. In all seriousness, if this is the 'democratic' way to do it ie, ignore the first vote result you didnt like, so have another tiered vote to decide the path, why hasnt it been put forward for discussion in parliament , voted on, and carried out ? Ill answer for you, because the result of that path would not be to the liking of most of parliament, quite simple when you actually think about it. Which makes a mockery of giving the vote to the people in the first place. Trouble is , the PEOPLE have noticed this, and are somewhat annoyed by the contempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 Update 10:45: Conflicting reports on the position of the DUP, we await confirmation. Update 11:05: Barnier says that the legal text of the agreement is now available. Update 11:10: Transition period until the end of 2020, says Barnier, with the possibility of an extension. Update 11:15: NI to remain aligned to limited set of EU Rules on goods. UK authorities in charge of applying EU customs code in NI. NI will remain in UK Customs Territory - benefit from UK's future trade policy. UK authorities to apply UK tariffs to products coming from third countries, so long as those goods are not at risk of entering single markets. Otherwise, EU tariffs will apply. After four years, MLAs (Stormont) will decide by simple majority whether or not to continue arrangements. Update 11:16: Idea of the development of a UK/EU customs territory has been abandoned in favour of FTA-based future relationship. Update 11:20: The agreement in full: https://order-order.com/2019/10/17/read-full-new-deal/ This is interesting, in that .. A.This isnt really Mays deal. B. The benn act is technically nullified now, so if the deal collapses at the last minute...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted October 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Rewulf said: The benn act is technically nullified now, Is this correct? My understanding was that any 'deal' had to be agreed with the EU AND ratified by passing a Parliamentary vote before the Benn act was redundant. See below: Section 1 obliges the Prime Minister to request an extension to the Article 50 negotiating period for the purpose of negotiating a withdrawal agreement, unless the House of Commons has passed a motion which either approves a withdrawal agreement or approves departure without a deal, and the House of Lords has debated the same motion. If such a motion is not approved, the Prime Minister is obliged to make the request no later than 19 October 2019. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: Is this correct? My understanding was that any 'deal' had to be agreed with the EU AND ratified by passing a Parliamentary vote before the Benn act was redundant. See below: Section 1 obliges the Prime Minister to request an extension to the Article 50 negotiating period for the purpose of negotiating a withdrawal agreement, unless the House of Commons has passed a motion which either approves a withdrawal agreement or approves departure without a deal, and the House of Lords has debated the same motion. If such a motion is not approved, the Prime Minister is obliged to make the request no later than 19 October 2019. Correct , but thats Saturday the proposed day of the vote in the house , can it get through the lords in the same day ?, So if the vote goes ahead and is passed, but not in time , does he still have to send it ? This is the bit where you have the case to stop the vote even happening drifting into legal barb wire. So if he has sent the letter to the EU , and in the meantime the vote passes, what happens to the request ? If after that , for some unexpected reason the 'deal' gets challenged collapses , or is deemed illegal, he has satisfied the benn act , and whoops ! Weve run out of time and were out This is why the remainers are now scrabbling around terrified they have missed something, there are loop- holes appearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 Not long now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bavarianbrit Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 Took over three years to get to stalemate and then they can last minute such agreements through??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyCM Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 Time to panic buy A run on cases of Bollinger ? 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 12 minutes ago, bavarianbrit said: Took over three years to get to stalemate and then they can last minute such agreements through??? Not been voted through yet, the remainers see a very real risk of no deal. The lesser of 2 evils now their dream of revocation has evaporated ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Rewulf said: The benn act is to frustrate Brexit entirely, it neutered negotiations ,and its end game is to revoke A50 , are you beginning to realise whats going on yet ? But it wont be set up that way, what remainer MP is going to vote for a ref with just 2 or 3 options for leave ? They want remain back on that ballot, hoping to split the leave vote and claim remain victory, we will then be in an even worse position, with added electorate anger. Talking and listening to people from all walks, theres a common thread..We want this finished, sorted. Its embarrassing. I've been aware what is going on from the start. There is no point re-running the same vote as in 2016. A second vote without a remain option is equally as undemocratic as revoking A50 w/o public consultation would be. Embarrassing it is. 1 hour ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: That's the next staged reached, BBC reporting Deal agreed! So why would you not accept the first referendum, double standards surely! I don't know how many times I have to try to explain this to you. I am happy to accept the result of the first referendum if it is based on a deal that is passed by our Parliament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted October 17, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 25 minutes ago, Rewulf said: can it get through the lords in the same day ? From the wording above (which puzzles me) it actually only says the Lords have to 'debate' it. Having said that - I agree that to get it all done on Saturday seems unlikely; I'm not sure if the Lords have been called to sit on Saturday? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said: I've been aware what is going on from the start. There is no point re-running the same vote as in 2016. A second vote without a remain option is equally as undemocratic as revoking A50 w/o public consultation would be.Sorry, but those 2 sentences conflict do they not ? Embarrassing pointless it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 hour ago, oowee said: I am not following the logic. If it is an illegal proposal then that needs to be proven? If it's illegal then fair enough but this is starting to smell like a stunt to just stop any deal being put to Parliament. I accept that my view may be incorrect but it is my current opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 Just now, JohnfromUK said: From the wording above (which puzzles me) it actually only says the Lords have to 'debate' it. Having said that - I agree that to get it all done on Saturday seems unlikely; I'm not sure if the Lords have been called to sit on Saturday? Exactly. The WA has to be passed through law, which involves the debate-vote in the house , then debate -vote through the lords, HM then signs it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Rewulf said: Not at all. The leave option needs to defined, not advocating splitting the vote. The vote would likely be for no deal or remain or some kind of deal and remain, although if a deal is passed by parliament then I see no need for a public vote. This logic stands up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: If it's illegal then fair enough but this is starting to smell like a stunt to just stop any deal being put to Parliament. I accept that my view may be incorrect but it is my current opinion. Its not illegal as such, but you cant pass a law to do 'something' that has consequences, then pass another law to stop the 'something' from happening ,so the consequences happen by default. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 I thought it had already been established that deal or no deal (I mean no deal agreed) there will have to be an extension beyond the end of this month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 9 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I don't know how many times I have to try to explain this to you. I am happy to accept the result of the first referendum if it is based on a deal that is passed by our Parliament. I don't know how many times I have to point out that your plan would not be accepting the result of the original and only referendum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 Just now, Rewulf said: Its not illegal as such, but you cant pass a law to do 'something' that has consequences, then pass another law to stop the 'something' from happening ,so the consequences happen by default. I agree (on this specific point). 1 minute ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: I don't know how many times I have to point out that your plan would not be accepting the result of the original and only referendum! Talking of pointless - both in sense of the conversation and your reply. PS - only referendum, so far... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said: Not at all. The leave option needs to defined, not advocating splitting the vote. The vote would likely be for no deal or remain or some kind of deal and remain, although if a deal is passed by parliament then I see no need for a public vote. This logic stands up. Who defines what option will face off against remain ? Can you not see the issues ? Corbyn is now screaming for 2nd ref, NOW a deals been agreed with the EU, hes had months to do this, but he thought it might cost him votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Rewulf said: Who defines what option will face off against remain ? Can you not see the issues ? Corbyn is now screaming for 2nd ref, NOW a deals been agreed with the EU, hes had months to do this, but he thought it might cost him votes. Can we just agree in principle that if the current deal does not get passed by Parliament then an acceptable confirmatory referendum would be a public choice between leaving with no deal and remain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 4 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I thought it had already been established that deal or no deal (I mean no deal agreed) there will have to be an extension beyond the end of this month. No , it was forced through law, and agreed in principle, that he wouldnt break the law. That doesnt mean we wont leave by the end of the month (benns law can be repealed just as quickly as it was made) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Rewulf said: No , it was forced through law, and agreed in principle, that he wouldnt break the law. That doesnt mean we wont leave by the end of the month (benns law can be repealed just as quickly as it was made) I meant from a pragmatic perspective, not a legal one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danger-Mouse Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, oowee said: I am not following the logic. If it is an illegal proposal then that needs to be proven? There is absolutely no argument that the new deal does break currrent UK law. However, it is a UK law so a simple repeal or amendment could easily be voted through if the HoC has the desire to do so. It's simply another cynical attempt to get an extension and then overturn Brexit. Jeff Taylor posted a video on the subject. He makes an interesting point about how the remoaner lawyer may have just shot himself in the foot with the new case. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3qCdczF4OQ Edited October 17, 2019 by Danger-Mouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 17, 2019 Report Share Posted October 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said: Can we just agree in principle that if the current deal does not get passed by Parliament then an acceptable confirmatory referendum would be a public choice between leaving with no deal and remain? No, a general election, then if the new house votes for it , a referendum on proposed options, followed by a vote on those options. Again , pointless having a referendum result that the house will not support, waste of time, money , and further harming public confidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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