BREXIT

[Thunderbird]

I’ve mostly observed the Brexit debate rather than got involved in it. But there are a few things that spring to mind right now. One is, that even if you were a remain voter at the start of all this, if you were not a member of the EU would you seriously want to join an organisation that would seek to punish and humiliate you if you ever wanted to leave? It reminds me of an acrimonious divorce, where one party can’t accept the fact that their husband or wife wants to leave them and seeks to punish them for it forever rather than moving on. 

The second thing is, what is it specifically about the EU and its mechanisms, policies and practices (not Europe in general) that some people feel so passionately attached? You only have to look on Facebook to see the kind of pro-remain posts that litter the pages. I bet a town near you has a “[insert name of town here] For Europe” (or similar) FB page, with people sharing their posts constantly. Surely, when (and if) we leave the EU, we can all still go on holiday to France and enjoy our croissants, and even go and work there if we want to. It’s looking likely that EU workers will still be able to live and work here indefinitely under some sort of agreement, and vice versa. 

 

People I know well, and in fact am related to, are seemingly so triggered into apoplexy by Brexit that I dare not discuss it with them, however objectively, which I think is the best way to discuss anything. It’s like they think it’s truly the end of the world, and I just don’t understand why. It’s sad really. It's not like the UK is going to float off into the Atlantic soon, though judging by some people's reactions you would think that this is the case. Do people think that we won't be European afterwards? Or just not European enough? 

 

Is it that many people view leave voters as simply racists with a ‘little England’ mentality? Perhaps that says more about the circles they move in than anything else. 

 

Strange times indeed. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Thunderbird
Typo

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

The second thing is, what is it specifically about the EU and its mechanisms, policies and practices (not Europe in general) that some people feel so passionately attached? You only have to look on Facebook to see the kind of pro-remain posts that litter the pages. I bet a town near you has a “[insert name of town here] For Europe” (or similar) FB page, with people sharing their posts constantly. Surely, when (and if) we leave the EU, we can all still go on holiday to France and enjoy our croissants, and even go and work there if we want to. It’s looking likely that EU workers will still be able to live and work here indefinitely under some sort of agreement, and vice versa. 

40 years of integration !
Its too complicated for us to leave !
We rely on the EU too much for our environmental standards and workers rights , because otherwise we wouldnt have any !
What about the ex pats!
Who will pick our fruit and veg !!!
What about my holidays in Spain !!!

Stuff like that you mean ? And any other racist xenophobic mentalities, leveled at normal people, who dare to question the holy institution of the EU ?

If we had been given a referendum vote each time the treaties with the EU had been changed, then maybe we could look to ourselves, and say that it was US that integrated ourselves so firmly into the EU, that extracting ourselves is going to be difficult/complicated, and we only had ourselves to blame.
Yet it took 40 years for anyone to be asked a single question on consent about it.
Despite the fact that any time we were asked to vote on MEPs in the last 20 odd years, a good proportion of the votes and seats went to Europsceptic candidates.
Despite the fact that we wouldnt even have had a referendum without a large (They miscalculated how large) proportion of the electorate had anti EU sentiments.

So how did we get so integrated into a system that is so hard to extract ourselves from ? (is it as hard as we are told?) 
Surely if the UK were a business , and such a poorly thought out move was made, some heads would roll ?

The people who got us here, be they nameless civil servants or politicians, are directly responsible for this, and many of them are directly responsible for trying to KEEP us in, in direct opposition to the will of the majority.
They took us in without a vote, integrated us further without a vote, begrudgingly gave us a vote when FORCED to, then ignored the vote for three and a half years.
To this day, many of them would happily give that majority the middle finger and completely and utterly ignore it still.

They dont want a peoples vote, a re run, or otherwise, unless its massively rigged to remain, they dont want a general election to remove them either.
They want to remain, and they dont care how its done.

Oliver letwin , soubry and others , have stated they wont stand for re election, but they wont stand down either, at least not until they have done as much as possible to stop Brexit.
You have to question the thinking behind this, they are not going to represent their constituents any more, they havent done for a while, yet they still claim to be speaking FOR their constituents ?
These people believe so much in the EU , they are prepared to finish their careers in shadow ?

Bizarre behaviour , from supposedly intelligent people , who we gave the (well paid ) privilege of representing us, NOT representing.
Dont let them get away with it.

 

[JDog]

A rare but eminently sensible post Thunderbird.

It seems like a lot of the remainers regularly posting on this thread are just dissatisfied with life

Captain Pugwash lives in the UK but wishes he didn't.

Retsdon doesn't live in the UK but wishes he did.

There are others.

[Jaymo]

1 minute ago, JDog said:

A rare but eminently sensible post Thunderbird.

It seems like a lot of the remainers regularly posting on this thread are just dissatisfied with life

Captain Pugwash lives in the UK but wishes he didn't.

Retsdon doesn't live in the UK but wishes he did.

There are others.

What is it they say about to ‘Assume’ !!!!!!

[Rewulf]

What could he possibly mean ? 

They said..

While there is no EU army and defence remains exclusively a matter for member states, the EU has recently taken big steps to boost defence cooperation.

Since 2016, there has been significant progress in the area of EU security and defence with several concrete EU initiatives to encourage cooperation and reinforce Europe’s capacity to defend itself. Read the overview of the latest developments.

 

High expectations for EU defence

 

Europeans expect the EU to guarantee security and peace. Three quarters (75%) are in favour of a common EU defence and security policy according to a special Eurobarometer on security and defence in 2017 and a majority (55%) were in favour of creating an EU army. More recently 68% of Europeans said they would like the EU to do more on defence (March 2018 Eurobarometer survey).

What nationality are these troops ?

[Rewulf]

An act of war ...

We are very angry about Turkey's military operation in Syria. This is an act of war, carried out by a NATO member state. We have a duty to be crystal clear and do what is necessary to make sure this military action comes to an end." [David Sassoli, President of the European Parliament]

Unlike...

 

"The EU has put in place for Ukraine the highest amount of EU assistance to any third country. We are talking about over €15 billion (...) We are determined to continue to support Ukraine and the Ukrainian people in these times." [Federica Mogherini, Foreign Affairs Council]

I wonder what kind of  'assistance ' we are talking about ?

[Thunderbird]

31 minutes ago, JDog said:

A rare but eminently sensible post Thunderbird.

It seems like a lot of the remainers regularly posting on this thread are just dissatisfied with life

 

Thank you. 

I fear that many 'staunch' remainers will seek to shoehorn Brexit in to blame for basically anything that goes wrong in the UK for the foreseeable future, and when things go right, it will be 'despite' Brexit. 

I also think that, however sad it may seem, that a great many people actually want this country (their country!) to suffer because of Brexit, even if it's just so they can say, "I told you so." 

😕

[JDog]

1 hour ago, Jaymo said:

What is it they say about to ‘Assume’ !!!!!!

Oh yes, Jaymo is on the list too.

[henry d]

Lists, wowzers, does that mean when the revolution comes they will be first against the wall?

[Rewulf]

7 minutes ago, henry d said:

Lists, wowzers, does that mean when the revolution comes they will be first against the wall?

Let these lot in, and that becomes a lot more likely. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-7594621/JOHN-MANN-Jeremy-Corbyn-let-Stalinist-bullies-leash.html?fbclid=IwAR2m1EW-pVZoPx80HdvZWzB9t0RnJnpC-dNe6Htdw9l0ZCxsf32YneP3H_M

If Brexit goes through, you should be safe Henry .

[Rewulf]

Weekend in Barcelona anyone , sample some of that 'better standard of living' EU style ?
The cops seem very nice 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-50098268?fbclid=IwAR1N2FJTJQpAaxx6TqX3U4gryZtNcgdNRTsTYAS2zHJWbl9GKwu_ReKgNTk

They voted for independence too, but jailed all the leaders so it doesnt count.
Then refused to allow another vote, and then jailed the new leaders.

The EU have condemned the violence.... of the protesters 😐

But wait ! Theyve had to close the border, so thats going to cost money !
Better err 'authorise' the police to sort this out quicktime.

The joys to come ..

[Raja Clavata]

On 18/10/2019 at 22:21, SneakyD said:

If you don't mind two genuine questions.  Why were you originally in favour of leaving? And what changed you mind?

My initial tendency towards leave was mostly due to long held biases, including:

• Being brought up in a family where the main bread winners job was always under threat of being moved to Germany
• A belief that the EU project was a kind of socioeconomic attempt by Germany to control Europe
• A couple of very unsavoury personal experiences with Eastern Europeans one of which involved my young son whilst on holiday
• Empathy with my friends who worked in the building game, mainly sparks, who were having issues with Polish workers in London - I also experienced these tensions hands-on when I did a bit of weekend / evening consulting for one of my pals which included the need for on-site visits

My position slipped back and forth several times in the run up to the referendum, a number of factors changed my mind but far the most compelling one was that I did not trust what Leave were promising and realised that it really would not be in the EUs interest to allow us to leave with a deal which was acceptable and overall more favourable than the one we currently have.

I have always maintained that I am anti-Brexit rather than pro-EU, the notion of Brexit appeals to me but I always felt that the majority of us would be worse off as a result of it for some time and since one of the key desires I have in life is for my kids to do better than I did (as my father wished for my brother and I) it really did not make sense for me to endorse leaving the EU.

18 hours ago, das said:

If you love the EU so much, consider a ferry or the Eurotunnel and join your compatriots there.

I prefer the idea of Parliament passing a bill to carve up an area of the UK to allow some of you to reside there and officially become the 51st State of the USA.

[oowee]

It continues to strike me how poorly formed the leave argument is. The calls for 'lets just get it done' are a demonstration of the small world inhabited by some. This is a momentous change and when I hear people prepared to carry on regardless of the implications, or indeed in ignorance of the implications, its easy to despair. I wonder how these champions of getting on with  it conduct there own business in such a cavalier and ill considered manner. 

Praise is due for Oliver Letwin who took a stand at the weekend to ask for diligent oversight of the new deal.  Common sense prevailed. If it is a good deal for the country lets look at it closely make appropriate changes and put it to a considered vote. Lets not follow a poorly though out and executed referendum with a hastily agreed and unscrutinised deal. 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by oowee

[Thunderbird]

12 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

My position slipped back and forth several times in the run up to the referendum, a number of factors changed my mind but far the most compelling one was that I did not trust what Leave were promising and realised that it really would not be in the EUs interest to allow us to leave with a deal which was acceptable and overall more favourable than the one we currently have.

I have always maintained that I am anti-Brexit rather than pro-EU, the notion of Brexit appeals to me but I always felt that the majority of us would be worse off as a result of it for some time and since one of the key desires I have in life is for my kids to do better than I did (as my father wished for my brother and I) it really did not make sense for me to endorse leaving the EU.

That's an interesting position and to be honest, a refreshingly pragmatic one. You feel the EU would not 'let' us leave with a favourable deal, presumably to deter others from leaving? That in itself raises wider questions about in who's interests exactly does the EU (in its present form at any rate) exist? 

For what it's worth I think both the leave and remain campaigns were pretty awful. 

[Raja Clavata]

9 minutes ago, oowee said:

It continues to strike me how poorly formed the leave argument is. The calls for 'lets just get it done' are a demonstration of the small world inhabited by some. This is a momentous change and when I hear people prepared to carry on regardless of the implications, or indeed in ignorance of the implications, its easy to despair. I wonder how these champions of getting on with  it conduct there own business in such a cavalier and ill considered manner. 

Praise is due for Oliver Letwin who took a stand at the weekend to ask for diligent oversight of the new deal.  Common sense prevailed. If it is a good deal for the country lets look at it closely make appropriate changes and put it to a considered vote. Lets not follow a poorly though out and executed referendum with a hastily agreed and unscrutinised deal. 

 

 

Agree 100%.

2 minutes ago, Thunderbird said:

That's an interesting position and to be honest, a refreshingly pragmatic one. You feel the EU would not 'let' us leave with a favourable deal, presumably to deter others from leaving? That in itself raises wider questions about in who's interests exactly does the EU (in its present form at any rate) exist? 

For what it's worth I think both the leave and remain campaigns were pretty awful. 

Yes but also that the Leave campaign was run by a bunch of charlatans.

I think the answer to your question is simple, they exist to serve themselves and their member states interest, they are not a global charity. The UK leaving the EU does not serve their interest and in fact presented an existential threat to them.

I too agree with you on the campaigns, some pretty cringe worthy claims on both sides.

[Rewulf]

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

It continues to strike me how poorly formed the leave argument is. The calls for 'lets just get it done' are a demonstration of the small world inhabited by some. This is a momentous change and when I hear people prepared to carry on regardless of the implications, or indeed in ignorance of the implications, its easy to despair. I wonder how these champions of getting on with  it conduct there own business in such a cavalier and ill considered manner. 

Praise is due for Oliver Letwin who took a stand at the weekend to ask for diligent oversight of the new deal.  Common sense prevailed. If it is a good deal for the country lets look at it closely make appropriate changes and put it to a considered vote. Lets not follow a poorly though out and executed referendum with a hastily agreed and unscrutinised deal. 

 

It continues to strike me how poorly formed the remain argument is , The calls for 'lets just forget about that pesky leave vote' are a demonstration of the small world inhabited by some.
This is a momentous vote , but when I hear people prepared to carry on regardless of the implications of ignoring that vote, its easy to despair. I wonder how these 'champions of democracy' sleep at night, knowing full well they are ignoring the wishes of the people who put them in power.

An arrest warrant should be due for Oliver letwin, who took a stand to ignore democracy, his constituents, and his country, and ruin the best option available for leavers and remainers on the table, for no good reason whatsoever .
Common sense got thrown out the window, along with any opposition credibility that was left.
The deal, whilst not being great, has EU agreement, and whilst steptoe roundly criticised how BAD it was, then used the argument of not having enough time to scrutinise it !?
Whilst the opposition have every right to oppose it, by voting it down, they vote to pass a motion that negates even voting on it happen !

 

The hope is , the speaker will allow it to be voted on, this , knowing Bercow, isnt a given.
Yet labour ,in their wisdom have pledged to bury the government in amendments stopping the vote from ever taking place ?
Just on the off chance it carries ?!
Thats a bit like stopping a general election from happening, because you might lose it !
Is this the kind of parliament you want ? The kind of 'scrutiny' you are talking about ?
 

[Rewulf]

Labour’s SHAME: Corbyn dodged Brexit embarrassment but MPs think he could lose 100 SEATS

JEREMY CORBYN managed to dodge another vote this weekend as his party supported the bid to delay a Brexit deal.

But many of his MPs fear that when a general election finally arrives Boris Johnson could win a majority of more than 100 seats. According to private polling seen by some Labour MPs, the party is set for an electoral humiliation, losing between 70 and 80 seats. The revelation comes after claims that Mr Corbyn made a deal with Mr Johnson that he would allow an election in late November once the October 31 deadline had passed without a no-deal Brexit.

 

However, when this was taken to the Parliamentary Labour Party there was uproar as MPs had seen the figures on what could happen to their seats. Mr Corbyn was forced to retreat.

ADVERTIS

Labour’s fresh turmoil came in the week Dame Louise Ellman became the latest senior figure to quit over anti-Semitism in the party. Dame Louise, MP for Liverpool Riverside, who is Jewish, had been a member for 55 years. She insisted she “can no longer advocate voting Labour when it risks Corbyn becoming PM”. 

A former shadow cabinet minister told the Sunday Express the leader is now “so toxic” that the party would struggle to hold on to seats in any circumstances. 

The senior MP said: “I could go to the most Remain parts of my constituency and tell them I was a Faragist Brexiteer and it would be less toxic than Corbyn’s name on the doorstep. 

“Apart from the fanatics in Momentum there is hardly anybody out there who will vote for him. 

“We are facing a historic level of defeat and we may not be able to come back from it. 

“The only hope is that out of the wreckage a moderate MP could emerge as the new leader rather than one of his inner circle.” 

 

Favourite among the moderates is Rachel Reeves, MP for Leeds West, but to win she will have to see off shadow chancellor John McDonnell, shadow education secretary Angela Rayner and shadow business secretary Rebecca Long-Bailey, all backed by big unions.

 

 

 

Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn (Image: REUTERS/Henry Nicholls)

Meanwhile, other MPs are trying to persuade shadow Brexit secretary Sir Keir Starmer not to stand. 

One Labour MP said: “The next leader has to be a woman. It’s embarrassing that the Tories have had two and we haven’t had one. There are some good women MPs.” 

Another added: “Keir has a very high opinion of himself but it’s not justified at all.” 

With polling suggesting defeat, Labour MPs fear that Mr Johnson’s EU deal could put a final nail in their coffin. One senior MP said: “If we do stop the deal, it does not help us. The party’s Brexit policy has been such a mess and so confusing, it’s almost impossible for us to sell it. Boris looks good now and it does not help that we went around saying he would not get a deal. 

“It’s just amazing that we have a leader who is so poor that someone like Boris Johnson with all his obvious problems and similarities to Donald Trump can still look like the better option.” 

A poll in Wales last week revealed that Labour could lose half its seats there, while canvassing in Scotland has revealed a likely wipe-out. 

One Scottish Labour MP said: “At the moment we will struggle to keep one of our [seven] seats. We will lose to the SNP and to the Lib Dems who have a much clearer Brexit policy.”

Edited October 21, 2019 by Rewulf

[oowee]

And this is another good example of the process. Rather than look at what is being tabled and the reasons for it there is an immediate cry from the roof tops of traitor, anti democracy rhetoric Its like a scene from Blackadder.   Far better to look at each issue, take them one at a time and dismantling them or amend the proposition accordingly. 

Surely the proposal should be put on the table and tested. Carry out economic assessment and stress test this against the type of deal and arrangement we want going forward. Rather than shout wolf lets work the the proposition.  The current shouting match is a re run of the referendum debate with the same level of evidence based discussion (which for the avoidance of doubt is minimal). 

[discobob]

22 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Thats a bit like stopping a general election from happening, because you might lose it !

A bit of a reverse dictatorship at the moment. Imagine what it would be like if it was Conservatives doing this to Labour!!

[Raja Clavata]

The Brexit Party aren't exactly over-joyed with the deal by all accounts.

Regardless of the motives of the Letwin amendment it was required to ensure the deal isn't a booby trap, the more you look at it the more it could be interpreted as precisely that at least in the long term.

Parliament are not going to resolve this, the only way forward is a public vote and if that is not facilitated then perhaps we deserve what the consequential risk might be - a Labour government.

[oowee]

7 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Parliament are not going to resolve this, the only way forward is a public vote and if that is not facilitated then perhaps we deserve what the consequential risk might be - a Labour government.

I would go along with this if the opposition was more credible. The public can easily be weaned off the B party on the basis that Boris is trying his inept best to do the secure a deal against all odds for the benefit of the masses. At the same time Corbyn is doing his best to alienate almost everyone else. In which case a GE would give the Tory majority needed to allow the right wing to have free reign. 

 

[Rewulf]

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

And this is another good example of the process. Rather than look at what is being tabled and the reasons for it there is an immediate cry from the roof tops of traitor, anti democracy rhetoric Its like a scene from Blackadder.   Far better to look at each issue, take them one at a time and dismantling them or amend the proposition accordingly. 

Surely the proposal should be put on the table and tested. Carry out economic assessment and stress test this against the type of deal and arrangement we want going forward. Rather than shout wolf lets work the the proposition.  The current shouting match is a re run of the referendum debate with the same level of evidence based discussion (which for the avoidance of doubt is minimal). 

Corbyn rubbished the deal before he laid eyes on it.
Is that what you mean by examining the deal closely  ? 

They could have voted on the draft WA , with an amendment that gave them some time to examine it .
But they chose to not only rubbish and block it, but to block voting on it entirely, by pushing through yet another law asking for more time to vote down ANY DEAL that gets passed before them.
You support this behaviour Grant because you want want they want, you dont want a deal, any deal.
You want remain, and anyone who voted for leave can go and take a hike.

Lib dems = Will campaign for a peoples vote as long as it has remain on the ballot, but will ignore the result if its not remain!

Labour = Will campaign for a peoples vote, then campaign for remain !

SNP = Will campaign for remain as long as it gets them another indy ref, will highly likely not want to rejoin the EU if successful  
Pound to a penny if the government promised them another indy ref , they could be 'bought' into his deal.

This is what you support, so lets not confuse the issue by pretending the deal needs to be examined.
No ones on that side wants one , its just a stalling tactic, with the clock running down on its effectiveness.

The funny bit is you are making the no deal scenario more and more likely the longer it goes on.

[Rewulf]

16 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Regardless of the motives of the Letwin amendment it was required to ensure the deal isn't a booby trap, the more you look at it the more it could be interpreted as precisely that at least in the long term.

Letwin, to cover his own personal motives , has insisted it is to make no deal more likely 

17 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Parliament are not going to resolve this, the only way forward is a public vote and if that is not facilitated then perhaps we deserve what the consequential risk might be - a Labour government.

Risk ? There isnt a risk with a labour government, there is a certainty.
A certainty of it not happening 🤣

 

7 minutes ago, oowee said:

I would go along with this if the opposition was more credible. The public can easily be weaned off the B party on the basis that Boris is trying his inept best to do the secure a deal against all odds for the benefit of the masses. At the same time Corbyn is doing his best to alienate almost everyone else. In which case a GE would give the Tory majority needed to allow the right wing to have free reign. 

There ya go , thats the sort of statement that makes people vote to leave.
You dont 'wean' people off their opinion, they arent children , or cattle, they have real concerns about their lives and futures.
You make them sound like idiots , because they dont think like you.

How long do you think Corbyn can stave off that election .......?

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

Letwin, to cover his own personal motives , has insisted it is to make no deal more likely 

Risk ? There isnt a risk with a labour government, there is a certainty.
A certainty of it not happening 🤣

 

There ya go , thats the sort of statement that makes people vote to leave.
You dont 'wean' people off their opinion, they arent children , or cattle, they have real concerns about their lives and futures.
You make them sound like idiots , because they dont think like you.

How long do you think Corbyn can stave off that election .......?

Concerns based upon hearsay and sound bites whipped into hysteria by the popular press? Or concerns that have been properly debated.

I would guess ( hope even) that the most extreme brexiteer can understand the benefit to the UK of diligent and intensive scrutiny for such a deal even if they want to deny the public the opportunity to see such a review. Far better to deflect attention from their own short comings by pointing at the opposition in all its forms and shouting wolf. 

[Raja Clavata]

Bercow making a statement to the house...