Dave-G Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 4 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: The left doesn't need to 'understand'. The left view is that the states takes on control - of Labour, (as in manpower, not the party) Businesses, Wealth, Money supply, Transport, Utilities, you name it - they want it all 'managed' by the state - on behalf of 'the people'. Historically the state has been very bad at doing this. But if you make all of your voters happy by taking money from the evil rich - and giving it to your core voters, you will get elected time after time. Just like the famous Diane Abbott interview about police numbers and costs - she didn't understand. She didn't need to understand - her voters aren't interested in the costs. They just want results and someone else can pay for it. They don't care who it comes from - or if it is borrowed, or how to pay it back. The left doesn't need to worry about costs - they either borrow the money needed, print it, or simply 'take it' from those who have carefully saved it. As I think Margaret Thatcher said - "the problems with socialism start when you run out of other peoples money to spend". And which Labour MP was it that supposedly left a note saying all the money has gone? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 Ed Balls! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 On 03/11/2019 at 17:16, JohnfromUK said: The 'high' standards are actually usually no 'higher' than other countries accept - just different. Their main purpose is to ensure that open competition is stifled. It is a bit like our telephone system as it was operated by the Post Office (GPO) before privatisation; It was grossly inefficient It was 'closed' in that you could only have a line or any apparatus supplied by the GPO and 'rented' very expensively Their system was antiquated using 'party lines' etc because there was no competition to keep then up to date There was along wait for new lines and facilities It was said that they had to do it to protect the 'quality of service' When it was privatised - suddenly you could buy your own phone, get your line from other suppliers. The cost of calls, apparatus etc. fell dra=maticall - and the new 'privatised' company, BT has prospered. I've never played golf in my life so I have no experience of that, but my point is that they will ensure if you are not paying 'membership', they get their 'pound of flesh' and more in other ways. It is about protecting themselves and their 'cosy protected market'. You are wrong here. If I am not paying a membership and I want to pay a green fee, I check the price at the club, if it is a silly price, I don’t play there. How do they get their ‘pound of flesh’ then. In addition to this, most clubs are happy to get a visitors green fee as it boosts there income at virtually 100% profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Dave-G said: And which Labour MP was it that supposedly left a note saying all the money has gone? 🙂 Liam Byrne! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted November 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, das said: I check the price at the club, if it is a silly price, I don’t play there. How do they get their ‘pound of flesh’ then. ?? Fairly obviously - if you don't play there, they don't get their pound of flesh. However - I don't think anyone realistically expects that we will do no trade at all with the EU post any Brexit of whatever type, deal or no deal. 5 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Liam Byrne! Indeed it was he. Every Labour administration has left office with no money left, higher unemployment and a poorer economy. Labour is the party of unemployment and endless borrowing. Edited November 4, 2019 by JohnfromUK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: Every Labour administration has left office with no money left, Remind me, when was the last Labour administration again? It's that long ago I've forgotten. In the meantime..... (the whole article is here) https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/ Edited November 4, 2019 by Retsdon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted November 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 8 minutes ago, Retsdon said: Remind me, when was the last Labour administration again? Liam Byrne, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury left the famous note to the effect that there was no money left for his successor. The following Cameron/Clegg coalition had to borrow heavily after Labour had left - to prevent total collapse of the banking system from the legacy left by Brown (and I grant you it wasn't all Brown's fault as international factors were involved. Labour also left huge commitments to pay for Private Finance Initiatives (PFI) into which they had entered. However - the actual rate of increase in debt has fallen considerably since Brown left office (May 2010) as spending has been brought under stricter control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 20 minutes ago, Retsdon said: Remind me, when was the last Labour administration again? It's that long ago I've forgotten. In the meantime..... (the whole article is here) https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/ Take a look at your graph again, in 2008 the debt really starts climbing. Tell me again, who was in power then? Again, 2010 when the tories came in it virtually immediately starts to level off, and is in control after 5 years, after 8 it levels off and starts to fall, where sadly the graph ends. Labour got us into debt, as they always do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 6 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: Liam Byrne, the Chief Secretary to the Treasury left the famous note to the effect that there was no money left for his successor. Do you really believe he was being serious? https://www.theguardian.com/global/2010/may/17/liam-byrne-letter-wider-tradition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted November 4, 2019 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 1 minute ago, Retsdon said: Do you really believe he was being serious? https://www.theguardian.com/global/2010/may/17/liam-byrne-letter-wider-tradition He was making a joke - but based on the facts. He knew - just like everyone else that the economic situation had gone all pear shaped on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 7 minutes ago, Rewulf said: in 2008 the debt really starts climbing. The global financial crisis do you mean? When every central bank in the world started printing money like crazy? Sure, that was Labour's fault. And it doesn't level off in 2010, it goes straight up. But anyway, the notion that a Labour government is wildly spendthrift isn't borne out by the facts. Look at this international comparison from the time Labour was in power. By international standards Browne's government were parsimonious in the extreme. https://investing.curiouscatblog.net/2010/03/15/government-debt-as-percentage-of-gdp-1990-2008-usa-japan-germany/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 12 minutes ago, Retsdon said: The global financial crisis do you mean? When every central bank in the world started printing money like crazy? Sure, that was Labour's fault. And it doesn't level off in 2010, it goes straight up. I think you need to learn how to read graphs then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 3 hours ago, Rewulf said: I think you need to learn how to read graphs then. just wait further on into the campaghn...............they will be producing graphs using a poly normal distribution curve..........which everyone takes as fact .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discobob Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 9 hours ago, ditchman said: just wait further on into the campaghn...............they will be producing graphs using a poly normal distribution curve..........which everyone takes as fact .. I'll have a swig of what your drinking @ditchman 😃 brilliant come back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 Standards are falling. The US has advised the UN that it is to withdraw from the Paris climate accords. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50297029 Environmental standards were a big issue with the former EU / US trade deal. https://www.tjm.org.uk/trade-deals/a-uk-us-trade-deal Gove says no US deal if it means lower environmental standards. https://www.politico.eu/article/michael-gove-no-us-trade-deal-if-it-means-lower-environmental-standards/ Boris under pressure to drop standards to allow a US trade deal. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-environment-rules-trump-trade-deal-a9143221.html https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1192408/theresa-may-deal-boris-johnson-deal-difference-brexit-details-latest-news Any wonder that Labour have concerns over removing Labour protections in the Boris deal? 🤔 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ditchman Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 2 hours ago, discobob said: I'll have a swig of what your drinking @ditchman 😃 brilliant come back its ok im sober now .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie to this Posted November 5, 2019 Report Share Posted November 5, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldypigeonpopper Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 hello, i read the Lib Dem leader Jo Swinson, stated that if they win this forth coming election they will revoke article 50, ?????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sportsbob Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 11 minutes ago, oldypigeonpopper said: hello, i read the Lib Dem leader Jo Swinson, stated that if they win this forth coming election they will revoke article 50, ?????? She has been saying that for a few weeks now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic69 Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 23 hours ago, oowee said: Standards are falling. The US has advised the UN that it is to withdraw from the Paris climate accords. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50297029 Environmental standards were a big issue with the former EU / US trade deal. https://www.tjm.org.uk/trade-deals/a-uk-us-trade-deal Gove says no US deal if it means lower environmental standards. https://www.politico.eu/article/michael-gove-no-us-trade-deal-if-it-means-lower-environmental-standards/ Boris under pressure to drop standards to allow a US trade deal. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-brexit-environment-rules-trump-trade-deal-a9143221.html https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1192408/theresa-may-deal-boris-johnson-deal-difference-brexit-details-latest-news Any wonder that Labour have concerns over removing Labour protections in the Boris deal? 🤔 Trump was right to withdraw from the Paris Climate Accords. They'll achieve nothing and cost trillions. They're devised to funnel money into the newly minted Green Spaces in industry who offer fantastic Carbon savings but really just shift it around a little. At best they'll be looking at -.02 degrees C over the next 100 years, if you believe they they can have any impact at all. As with the EU, the minority of signatories and funders are contributors, the rest will gladly take that money in return for their allegiance. Those trillions will go into Solar farms, wind farms and carbon off-setting. Not into the research that is so desperately needed. Have a look at Bjorn Lomborg, he explains it from an economical and logical standpoint, not an emotional one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 2 hours ago, Demonic69 said: Trump was right to withdraw from the Paris Climate Accords. They'll achieve nothing and cost trillions. They're devised to funnel money into the newly minted Green Spaces in industry who offer fantastic Carbon savings but really just shift it around a little. At best they'll be looking at -.02 degrees C over the next 100 years, if you believe they they can have any impact at all. As with the EU, the minority of signatories and funders are contributors, the rest will gladly take that money in return for their allegiance. Those trillions will go into Solar farms, wind farms and carbon off-setting. Not into the research that is so desperately needed. Have a look at Bjorn Lomborg, he explains it from an economical and logical standpoint, not an emotional one. Although the science behind the crisis is evident, I fully accept that there are different views on the best way to tackle the problem and the following application of policy but its the principle of approach I was getting at rather than the detail. Rather than look at the issues and propose a revised approach to challenge the proposition, Trump is choosing to unilaterally withdraw from an agreed treaty. In doing so he is ignoring the overwhelming evidence presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demonic69 Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 32 minutes ago, oowee said: Although the science behind the crisis is evident, I fully accept that there are different views on the best way to tackle the problem and the following application of policy but its the principle of approach I was getting at rather than the detail. Rather than look at the issues and propose a revised approach to challenge the proposition, Trump is choosing to unilaterally withdraw from an agreed treaty. In doing so he is ignoring the overwhelming evidence presented. I'll see if I can find the article, but I read that Trump's administration have already made more aggressive and concrete commitments to climate change and CO2 reduction, even though he's a sceptic, but these didn't mesh with with the Paris Accord, that seemed more focused on taxes and funnelling funds away from local initiatives. There's also the consideration that the science isn't exactly conclusive; science isn't based on consensus, it's based on irrefutable fact, which the current climate "Crisis" doesn't yet meet. But that's for another forum topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 9 minutes ago, Demonic69 said: I'll see if I can find the article, but I read that Trump's administration have already made more aggressive and concrete commitments to climate change and CO2 reduction, even though he's a sceptic, but these didn't mesh with with the Paris Accord, that seemed more focused on taxes and funnelling funds away from local initiatives. There's also the consideration that the science isn't exactly conclusive; science isn't based on consensus, it's based on irrefutable fact, which the current climate "Crisis" doesn't yet meet. But that's for another forum topic I would refute this assertion preferring to believe the consensus view agreed by the UN but as you say that's for another forum topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 (edited) Well he’s confirmed what we all knew!........It is reported that Bercow has now declared Brexit as “the biggest foreign policy mistake” in post war era! Edited November 6, 2019 by panoma1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted November 6, 2019 Report Share Posted November 6, 2019 I see Bercow makes light of the Iraq war. Odious little cretin, with a "loyal" wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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