Rewulf Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 11 minutes ago, henry d said: Here`s our local fruit/veg farm who pay top dollar and have little problem with recruitment of EU nationals So you ve answered the question then, pay the money, get the staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 2 hours ago, Rewulf said: Why? Why do we have to increase competitiveness and efficiency? Why the issue with workers rights? And why this obsession that we are going to adopt US practice's? Outside of the EU, UK product will be third country. Product made here that goes into EU products will reduce EU content for existing EU trade deals. There will be pressure on price. UK product will be subject to tariff into the EU and around the world, where trade deals do not exist. There will be pressure on price. The increased regulation of goods in transit will increase transport costs. There will be pressure on price. The more open border policy and zero tariff applied to EU imports will legally have to apply world wide. Prices for imports will fall increasing competition for UK produce. There will be pressure on price. How will the UK respond to this pressure on price? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncher Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 I Used to work on the land before the open border, wages had become decent and the last year I did price work etc I earned £35k.(2001) To be honest we all did then one polish lad came into the gang and he would do anything for little money and very quickly our rates dropped. So we all left and moved on . The EU cheap labour is all about business and keeping inflation down. The labour was always there and still is, just the wages are not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 42 minutes ago, muncher said: I Used to work on the land before the open border, wages had become decent and the last year I did price work etc I earned £35k.(2001) To be honest we all did then one polish lad came into the gang and he would do anything for little money and very quickly our rates dropped. So we all left and moved on . The EU cheap labour is all about business and keeping inflation down. The labour was always there and still is, just the wages are not! Not according to this https://www.fpcfreshtalkdaily.co.uk/single-post/2019/10/21/Millions-of-apples-left-to-rot-as-EU-pickers-stay-away or this https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/13/uk-apple-growers-labour-shortage-brexit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 1 hour ago, oowee said: Outside of the EU, UK product will be third country. Product made here that goes into EU products will reduce EU content for existing EU trade deals. There will be pressure on price. UK product will be subject to tariff into the EU and around the world, where trade deals do not exist. There will be pressure on price Was it not you that said the other day that there was very few exports from us that would carry tariffs, in a no deal scenario? Where as the EU would tarrif more to us on it's imports? So whose prices would be under pressure? Outside the EU trade would be unaffected or become cheaper as deals became avaliable, something that can't be quantified yet due to EU rules. 4 minutes ago, oowee said: Not according to this https://www.fpcfreshtalkdaily.co.uk/single-post/2019/10/21/Millions-of-apples-left-to-rot-as-EU-pickers-stay-away or this https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/13/uk-apple-growers-labour-shortage-brexit More to that than meets the eye. Are you trying to say that the growers would rather lose the whole crop, than pay decent pickers wages? Or are you saying the pickers aren't available at any price? Sounds to me like the growers had no buyers, so used the waste of the crop for political point scoring, or some form of payout from CAP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Rewulf said: Was it not you that said the other day that there was very few exports from us that would carry tariffs, in a no deal scenario? Where as the EU would tarrif more to us on it's imports? So whose prices would be under pressure? Outside the EU trade would be unaffected or become cheaper as deals became avaliable, something that can't be quantified yet due to EU rules. No there will be few tariffs on EU goods to the UK. tariffs will be on our sales to the EU putting pressure on price. Limited tariffs on EU goods to UK to protect consumers, opens up the rest of the world to the same deal (wto rules) putting pressure on UK producers to reduce price. Outside of the EU product prices will reduce to the UK (wto rules. EU to UK rates applied for the rest of the world) reducing prices from around the world puts price pressure on UK manufacturers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 1 hour ago, henry d said: Yet you posted this generalisation? Here`s our local fruit/veg farm who pay top dollar and have little problem with recruitment of EU nationals Yes, but my generalisation was a generalisation based on fact! Or are you trying to deny that a high proportion of seasonal fruit/veg/flower pickers in the UK, are low paid labour, from Eastern Europe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncher Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 17 minutes ago, oowee said: Not according to this https://www.fpcfreshtalkdaily.co.uk/single-post/2019/10/21/Millions-of-apples-left-to-rot-as-EU-pickers-stay-away or this https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/sep/13/uk-apple-growers-labour-shortage-brexit Yes that has always happens when it's a bumper crop and it's cheaper to get it from Europe To be honest they look like a pollination apple trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 7 minutes ago, oowee said: No there will be few tariffs on EU goods to the UK. tariffs will be on our sales to the EU putting pressure on price Which is the complete opposite of what you or Raja said a few weeks ago, unfortunately I'm on my phone otherwise I'd find it. But that's by the by, because both you scenarios are pure speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, muncher said: Yes that has always happens when it's a bumper crop and it's cheaper to get it from Europe To be honest they look like a pollination apple trees. What? Thats not what it says is it? I would take any pic with a pinch of apple juice, it's likely to be library. Farmers are experiencing a 16 per cent shortfall in the seasonal workforce, according to the survey, and industry experts believe that the country would need 70,000 workers to plug the gap. Ali Capper, chairwoman of the NFU’s horticultural board and an apple producer, said that she had never seen crop wastage like it. She added: “It’s a train crash. Last year we didn’t have these issues. This year there’s already wastage of 16 million apples.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 1 minute ago, oowee said: What? Thats not what it says is it? I would take any pic with a pinch of apple juice, it's likely to be library. Farmers are experiencing a 16 per cent shortfall in the seasonal workforce, according to the survey, and industry experts believe that the country would need 70,000 workers to plug the gap. Ali Capper, chairwoman of the NFU’s horticultural board and an apple producer, said that she had never seen crop wastage like it. She added: “It’s a train crash. Last year we didn’t have these issues. This year there’s already wastage of 16 million apples.” Perhaps the seasonal workers have caught on to the fact they are being exploited? I’m sure the growers could get pickers, if they paid them a rate of pay that UK workers could afford to work for! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stonepark Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, oowee said: What? Thats not what it says is it? I would take any pic with a pinch of apple juice, it's likely to be library. Farmers are experiencing a 16 per cent shortfall in the seasonal workforce, according to the survey, and industry experts believe that the country would need 70,000 workers to plug the gap. Ali Capper, chairwoman of the NFU’s horticultural board and an apple producer, said that she had never seen crop wastage like it. She added: “It’s a train crash. Last year we didn’t have these issues. This year there’s already wastage of 16 million apples.” Migrant workers follow the money, if the returns are not good enough (wages less living costs) they simply go elsewhere where they are better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncher Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 My family on my mother's side were fruit growers. The business is very hard one, wrong apples equals no sales and even with modern root stock (so the young trees fruit earlier) it takes a long time to change variety. I'm sure you know what pollinating tree , very common,at least around here to have rows of pollinators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 10 minutes ago, muncher said: My family on my mother's side were fruit growers. The business is very hard one, wrong apples equals no sales and even with modern root stock (so the young trees fruit earlier) it takes a long time to change variety. I'm sure you know what pollinating tree , very common,at least around here to have rows of pollinators. Sorry mate you have lost me on that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncher Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 1 minute ago, oowee said: Sorry mate you have lost me on that one. Pollinating trees help attract more bees etc but the fruit but normally sour. New variety of apples are grafted onto root stock, they affect the growth rate of the tree IE dwarf trees or strong growers, to change to the latest trends IE when I was involved Gala was the new one, it takes years to change over. Most orchard around here have now been ripped up and are farm land now.cheep import from South Africa etc and out of date growing method s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 3 minutes ago, muncher said: Pollinating trees help attract more bees etc but the fruit but normally sour. New variety of apples are grafted onto root stock, they affect the growth rate of the tree IE dwarf trees or strong growers, to change to the latest trends IE when I was involved Gala was the new one, it takes years to change over. Most orchard around here have now been ripped up and are farm land now.cheep import from South Africa etc and out of date growing method s. I appreciate that but what has any of that got to do with the shortage of labour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muncher Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 (edited) You said you were lost, I thought you meant the apple side 😁shortage of labour is possible but there's plenty around here Romanian etc ,so I think it's mainly good headlines. Edited October 25, 2019 by muncher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 🙂 ah I see. I think the picture is a library shot rather than the orchard in the report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 1 hour ago, panoma1 said: Yes, but my generalisation was a generalisation based on fact! Or are you trying to deny that a high proportion of seasonal fruit/veg/flower pickers in the UK, are low paid labour, from Eastern Europe? Based on fact, yes a high proportion of agricultural workers are from the EU, low paid...yes but not below minimum as that is illegal and the average is £8-63/hr which is slightly above the national minimum for a 25 YO (£8-21). Yes it is true that they are low paid workers compared to the UK average hourly wage which seems to be over £13/hr. Yes some will be paid CIH and it will be below NMW but as said above, they walk if the farmer is taking liberties and this will happen more and more. Mostly a generalisation and based on contestable facts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, henry d said: Based on fact, yes a high proportion of agricultural workers are from the EU, low paid...yes but not below minimum as that is illegal and the average is £8-63/hr which is slightly above the national minimum for a 25 YO (£8-21). Yes it is true that they are low paid workers compared to the UK average hourly wage which seems to be over £13/hr. Yes some will be paid CIH and it will be below NMW but as said above, they walk if the farmer is taking liberties and this will happen more and more. Mostly a generalisation and based on contestable facts What’s CIH? 🤔 These people come from Europe to the UK, specifically to do seasonal work in agriculture, some farmers are reportedly paying them below the minimum wage, getting around it by deducting “stoppages”......for example, by providing accommodation, for which the cost is determined by the employer, and is deducted from their (minimum) wage! Perhaps the migrant agricultural workers so affected, have caught on they’re being exploited, and decided to vote with their feet and/or found they can earn more washing cars? Hence the reports of farmers wringing their hands, complaining of their apples rotting on the ground!...this certainly has as much credibility as using Brexit as a reason! Edited October 25, 2019 by panoma1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 Cash in Hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said: Cash in Hand. Thanks Dave, obviously I have lead a sheltered life? 😏 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 OK we have now moved on from "high proportion" to "some" and yes there are some unscrupulous people out there but the Govt have closed this as there is an offset for accommodation costs (many do not charge as it is a bonus for the workers...well caravans) and if the farmer is not careful he can be paying people under the NMW and can be prosecuted and farm workers are not thick. We went to a large fire on a farm in a neighbouring district and ended up talking to a doctor from Poland who earns more here than as a doc back home and I have a neighbour from Bulgaria who does not work as a vet as her husband gets more as a bus driver than they both earned back home. I even met a Bulgarian couple just over a week ago in the Costa del Sol who are earning good money there and don`t want to leave Spain as they are living better there than at "home" and they must have been as the cocktails we were all drinking were a min of 12 euro each. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 On 24/10/2019 at 17:34, Newbie to this said: Will remainer MPs do the democratic thing and honour the referendum? ☹️ WE hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
das Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 On 24/10/2019 at 18:02, Rewulf said: Is he ? I think you will find the tactical voting goes something like this . If the cons can win the seat , do not vote against them. If they cant win the seat, vote Brexit party. https://www.oneuk.org/?fbclid=IwAR2uB_1SUP-vOLYQ1rjWpm64C9GAZ_2MbR35P1RdWVyGLV8BYLGwH8sdAwc Exactly Good advice to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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