panoma1 Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: You've kinda proved my point. How so? You havent answered my question! which kinda proves a point too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 33 minutes ago, panoma1 said: So the EU’s restrictive practices, having our elected representatives (therefore us!) and our laws dictated to and overruled by an unelected cabal of mostly non UK unelected commissioners and courts, based in a non UK country, and the UK contributing vast amounts of our countries wealth for the privilege, is not why people voted leave? So you actually believe all this (still). On the contrary, you claim the UK electorate are so stupid they voted leave on a superficial preference of a colour or name? This is the crux of the point - you are taking my analogy and applying it somewhat literally! Could you be any more insulting and patronising if you tried? The above statement works both ways. What pray we’re you reasons for voting remain? Financial self interest? And again, related to the point, after all these months of discussion, after I have gone to great lengths explaining myself around all this, you want me to repeat myself. Have you actually been listening to anything any of those with opposing views to yours have said? I am assuming that listening and trying to understand different perspectives is something you are capable of... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mice! Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 2 hours ago, oowee said: Competition in the workplace is part of the capitalist system assuming standards are maintained. As we move to Brexit and opt to remove barriers to market entry we effectively increase competition.The migration of EU workers to locations of high demand helps to balance out the labour shortages. Imagine a situation where the UK did not have these workers. Do you think wages would increase or do you think the public with a finite amount of cash will just buy less of the service? I don't know what business you are in but if you have a trade there is a desperate skills shortage for any trade skills in the South. I never understood why so many appear reluctant to move with work. From the bottom up, no one in a trade up north is going to move to the south, the same size house is going to be between 50% and a 100% more so any slight increase in wages is irrelevant. I have moved with work, I took a relocation to Scotland years ago after redundancy then moved back, then contracted to earn more rather than just doing the same thing. I don't know what the UK would do without the foreign workers, they work dammed hard and a lot of people in this country are happy to sit at home taking hand outs, but they also work for less. I went for an interview once, lots of signs in foreign which turned out to be Polish, small sub con company, wage was probably £3-4 an hour less than I was expecting, because there were 5 or 6 Polish lads working there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 4 hours ago, Scully said: Let’s not try and kid ourselves Henry, we both know. 🙂It would appear the irony of your last post is lost on you. This one below? 4 hours ago, henry d said: Ok, oowee has told you first hand what the tax situation is for his wife, you quote something from the cryptic school of thought, and from the last post from you you say you believe no one. Think about it for a moment; you are saying he is lying and the school of thought is true even though you believe no one? Plausible argument? The irony is really lost on me as that was my last post, before this one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 ...I hope I have at least managed to point both to some courses which are better not persisted in, but also explained why all the big choices in Brexit, which matter hugely for the U.K. but also for others too, lie ahead of us. https://policyscotland.gla.ac.uk/ghost-of-christmas-yet-to-come-brexit-lecture-full-text/ Sir Ivan's final words this week in Glasgow, and I'm posting the link to Sir Ivan's lecture again because it should be read by anyone with a genuine interest in Brexit. But a warning - the lecture is long and at times technically complicated. But then so is the Brexit process so really there's no getting around that. And there's the problem really. Both the media and politicians in Britain are quite obviously contemptuous of people's ability to understand complex issues, so they dumb these matters down to the point that the 'debate' bears no relationship to the actual facts under discussion. Rather they reduce everything to a personality pantomime and invite people to take sides. But it's not like that at all really. To understand why Brexit is so difficult to achieve and what's at stake, it's necessary to understand something about modern international trade and how it is conducted globally. And that's why Sir Ivan is worth reading. Firstly, he genuinely knows what he's talking about. And secondly he doesn't patronize his audience as if their average IQ was in the 80s. So the lecture isn't a quick 5 minute BBC 'things you should know about Brexit'. Rather, like most anything that's worth doing, reading it can be hard work at times, but at the end of it (and particularly after reading it a couple of times) the reader will know more about the current situation with Brexit and what's in store than they'll learn from 50 years of newspaper stories. I'm sure there will be those who will say that they can't be bothered to learn about Brexit. So I'll use an old fashioned word and say that given that Britain is a democracy and given that Brexit is the biggest upheaval since WW2, that it's everyone's duty to know as much about it as they can. With democratic rights come democratic responsibilities. Anyway, there we are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderbird Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 13 minutes ago, Retsdon said: Brexit is the biggest upheaval since WW2 Unless Labour win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 22 minutes ago, Retsdon said: and given that Brexit is the biggest upheaval since WW2 Don't be ridiculous! Everyone knows the climate emergency is the greatest threat facing mankind EVER, so how can Brexit even figure? This is the last generation, we are dooomed, DOOOMED I TELL THEE! REPENT, REPENT ALL YE... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 15 minutes ago, Thunderbird said: Unless Labour win. No Labour will only be for 5 years at most and they will take two years to get going. Brexit is real and will have much bigger impact than any wet dream Corbyn can have. If it's no deal Corbyn's ideas may be the next step. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 1 hour ago, henry d said: This one below? The irony is really lost on me as that was my last post, before this one It’s the irony of you claiming some are quoting from what you refer to as ‘the cryptic school of thought’. I find it hugely ironic and somewhat condescending; perhaps you don’t. Never mind, I’ m puzzled as to why I believe I would expect anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 4 minutes ago, oowee said: No Labour will only be for 5 years at most and they will take two years to get going. Brexit is real and will have much bigger impact than any wet dream Corbyn can have. If it's no deal Corbyn's ideas may be the next step. I thought ‘no deal ‘ was now illegal. It’s quite amusing how everyone is now clamouring for a referendum. Sturgeon is demanding a second because she didn’t get the result she wanted, remainers have been campaigning for a second for three years for the very same reason, and on the lunchtime news the welsh are wanting one! And why not.....isn’t that what democracy is all about? 😂 Is it me? 🤪 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 17 minutes ago, Scully said: I thought ‘no deal ‘ was now illegal. It’s quite amusing how everyone is now clamouring for a referendum. Sturgeon is demanding a second because she didn’t get the result she wanted, remainers have been campaigning for a second for three years for the very same reason, and on the lunchtime news the welsh are wanting one! And why not.....isn’t that what democracy is all about? 😂 Is it me? 🤪 If Boris gets in no deal is coming down the tracks next station stop England and Wales. Unless he asks for an extension which would split the Tories again or he capitulates a deal in favour of the EU . Take your pick from the scenarios none of them are great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 4 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: The analogy I would use is picking the winner of a horse race based on the name of the horse or the colour scheme of the jockeys shirt. The reasons people have given on this thread for voting to leave the EU are mainly factual, based on the EU’s past (and current) conduct and performance, your reasons for remaining are merely supposition based on what you think may happen in the future and/or your own self interest! Neither you nor I, nor anyone else for that matter, knows what will happen when the UK leaves the EU.....but those that voted to leave as sure as hell know what happened when we were in it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Neither you nor I, nor anyone else for that matter, knows what will happen when the UK leaves the EU... Nobody yet knows what terms Britain will leave on, but they've a very good idea of how different scenarios will play out depending on the terms that are eventually agreed. https://policyscotland.gla.ac.uk/ghost-of-christmas-yet-to-come-brexit-lecture-full-text/ 1 hour ago, Scully said: It’s quite amusing how everyone is now clamouring for a referendum. "Remainers who think the clock can be put back are, I think, in denial about where mainstream Continental opinion is." https://policyscotland.gla.ac.uk/ghost-of-christmas-yet-to-come-brexit-lecture-full-text/ Edited November 27, 2019 by Retsdon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Scully said: It’s the irony of you claiming some are quoting from what you refer to as ‘the cryptic school of thought’. I find it hugely ironic and somewhat condescending; perhaps you don’t. Never mind, I’ m puzzled as to why I believe I would expect anything else. I refered to as cryptic but as you see below it is his words. 16 hours ago, Jim Sarakun said: European workers pay uk tax, but are reimbursed when they go back to their country of origin, is what I was taught when I was in the "School of thought" He then goes on to imply oowee is a liar and then to say he believes "no one" but does believe this (to me cryptic, and if anyone knows the place please help me out) "school of thought". Not condescending and I can`t see the irony? "School of thought" ... anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Retsdon said: Nobody yet knows what terms Britain will leave on, but they've a very good idea of how different scenarios will play out depending on the terms that are eventually agreed. https://policyscotland.gla.ac.uk/ghost-of-christmas-yet-to-come-brexit-lecture-full-text/ "Remainers who think the clock can be put back are, I think, in denial about where mainstream Continental opinion is." https://policyscotland.gla.ac.uk/ghost-of-christmas-yet-to-come-brexit-lecture-full-text/ It’s still all just negative guesswork and supposition by remainers! propped up by quoting someone else’s (probably biased) opinion!.......If the UK get’s behind Brexit rather than remainers subverting and trying to reverse it....the UK will make a success of it......despite the politicians! Edited November 27, 2019 by panoma1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, panoma1 said: It’s still all just negative guesswork and supposition by remainers! propped up by quoting someone else’s (probably biased) opinion!.......If the UK get’s behind Brexit rather than remainers subverting and trying to reverse it....the UK will make a success of it......despite the politicians! Get behind what exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 11 minutes ago, oowee said: Get behind what exactly? This country, post Brexit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 12 minutes ago, panoma1 said: This country, post Brexit! So what is this Brexit that you want us to get behind? What is the plan? What is the strategy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 1 hour ago, panoma1 said: The reasons people have given on this thread for voting to leave the EU are mainly factual, based on the EU’s past (and current) conduct and performance, your reasons for remaining are merely supposition based on what you think may happen in the future and/or your own self interest! Neither you nor I, nor anyone else for that matter, knows what will happen when the UK leaves the EU.....but those that voted to leave as sure as hell know what happened when we were in it! You stated previously that I didn't answer your question - so I did - you've ignored my reply and written this ^^^. I have no problem with you believing, or even knowing, that you are right on all this and I am wrong. I would be interested to know how being in the EU has been of real detriment to you, or anyone else you know for that matter, based on the facts that you appear so fond of. 42 minutes ago, panoma1 said: It’s still all just negative guesswork and supposition by remainers! propped up by quoting someone else’s (probably biased) opinion!.......If the UK get’s behind Brexit rather than remainers subverting and trying to reverse it....the UK will make a success of it......despite the politicians! This is part of the problem - some people only care about Brexit and don't care what happens as a result of it - you fell for their lies and false promises hook line and sinker. In outlining the plan / strategy you also want to have a go at telling us Brexit skeptics what good looks like to you post Brexit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 44 minutes ago, oowee said: So what is this Brexit that you want us to get behind? What is the plan? What is the strategy? Making the country the arbiter of its own future! Not having it decided by others! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 14 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Making the country the arbiter of its own future! Not having it decided by others! Meet the new boss. https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/Summary_of_U.S.-UK_Negotiating_Objectives.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 48 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: You stated previously that I didn't answer your question - so I did - you've ignored my reply and written this ^^^. I have no problem with you believing, or even knowing, that you are right on all this and I am wrong. I would be interested to know how being in the EU has been of real detriment to you, or anyone else you know for that matter, based on the facts that you appear so fond of. This is part of the problem - some people only care about Brexit and don't care what happens as a result of it - you fell for their lies and false promises hook line and sinker. In outlining the plan / strategy you also want to have a go at telling us Brexit skeptics what good looks like to you post Brexit. You made comment, I did not see any question marks in your reply, so to what question do you refer? I didn’t state who was right or who was wrong I merely drew the comparison with my fact and your guesswork and supposition! I have already written how I consider the EU has been detrimental to this country and therefore to myself! I care what happens to this country, how dare you imply I don’t when it’s you and your fellow undemocratic remainers who are constantly trying to subvert the UK’s chances of success post Brexit. What is this “what good looks like” you claim I want to have a go at telling you brexit skeptics? 1 minute ago, Retsdon said: Meet the new boss. https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/Summary_of_U.S.-UK_Negotiating_Objectives.pdf So the UK has accepted this then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 2 minutes ago, panoma1 said: So the UK has accepted this then? Not going to have much choice. Won't be in a position to resist. And there's this from the other side of the globe. India’s government has made it clear that it will be in no rush to reach a trade deal with the UK without significant concessions on movement of people. https://www.ft.com/content/56074dda-95bd-11e9-8cfb-30c211dcd229 So the Poles will be replaced from India. Again, this will be the new Britain Unchained. An unregulated melting pot - a free marketeers wet dream. It's called 'taking back control'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 3 hours ago, oowee said: Take your pick from the scenarios none of them are great. Depends how you voted. No deal would be great from my point of view. 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted November 27, 2019 Report Share Posted November 27, 2019 1 minute ago, Scully said: No deal would be great from my point of view. Just curious why you think that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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