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22 minutes ago, armsid said:

okay guys, what type of relationship with the EU does Turkey have regarding trade etc.i know that if i go to France and apply for work i will not get a job why? they actively employ french unless there is no one skilled at that job and they are fined if this is not adhered to i tried to get a job myself and was told french jobs for french people but as i did not record the incident i have no prooff. on subject 2 if germany goes into recession and jobs are on the line where will the axe strike?   here mini rolls bentley cheaper to closedown here than germany oh i forgot vauxhall which is making a proffit but not opel that is why GM sold it as to close down in germany would have been astronomicle under german law  and vauxhall was making a proffitt.               This setup has never been a level playing field and never will with germany ruling the roost.   3 .what type of border does Albania have with EU it is not a member  how is it patrolled how do goods flow every one thinks i am living in the70, not true i just dont like being lied to by our leaders and if we stay in heaven help us we will be no stronger than a parish  council  i walk through liecester city and find it hard to find an english voice i am not a racist and wonder how do we cope with the influx where are we finding the extra work homes doctors etc surely we must be able to have some control  as it is getting to apoint where the workwanters will outnuber jobs rant over

I am (at the moment) an EU citizen but if I go to Germany to my sister's,  all I can get is a migrant worker's ID card which means that I cannot open a bank account, cannot buy a property, cannot claim any benefits or access any healthcare 

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7 hours ago, Vince Green said:

I am (at the moment) an EU citizen but if I go to Germany to my sister's,  all I can get is a migrant worker's ID card which means that I cannot open a bank account, cannot buy a property, cannot claim any benefits or access any healthcare 

Well that’s bizarre, because if you go to France you can do all of those and a ‘Carte Sejour’ is not a requirement at all unless your ‘not’ an EU citizen

Will check with my German colleagues and some English ones who are in Düsseldorf and report back as there is something not quite right there !!!!!

I actually had my “Relationship Manager” from our French Bank ring me yesterday for his usual six month “how’s it going chat” , offering me further investment/ borrowing or mortgage- last year this particular Bank couldn’t offer Mortgages to anyone with only ‘Sterling’ income, but this has changed too. ( other banks didn’t have this criteria as I have a mortgage with a Bank there that I don’t even carry out my day to day Banking with).

 

Edited by Jaymo

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8 hours ago, JRDS said:

Yep you are very anti British, maybe you should go forthright back to France if you think its so great and I doubt your benefits if needed would match the UK's by a mile. Maybe thats why there are so many boats on the Channel full of Migrants risking their lives to sponge of us.

Now now, you really do need to quote facts and not assumptions.

Just one snippet for you as I think your on overload as it is- currently in the Uk, we cannot receive Child benefit due to our earnings ( well yes, we can receive it but it then is clawed back at the end of each tax year) but in my “beloved” France- no “means” testing

What they do have and this isn’t dictated by the EU, is the sensible access to benefits such as a min time / previous years working time equivalent, before your able to claim- the UK has shot itself in the foot and gives out benefits to “everyone” ( not just migrants as the Stats will show, are a small minority of the annual Governments expenditure)

This could easily be changed by ‘ANY’ ruling Party and as stated- NOT subject to EU law.

If you care to look at little further than the Channel, then migration to other Countries is in full flow- it’s happened since the dawn of time- but knowledge and rumour of a “brilliant new life” due to information exchange and availability has accelerated this.

The med/ Adriatic has many attempting the same thing- they don’t all land in say, Italy and suddenly make a beeline for the UK you know ( yes, I can say I’ve witnessed it personally, can you?)

We slightly off topic bringing immigration into Brexit, but immigration is EVERYWHERE- your not telling me that Mexicans have only just started trying to criss the border to the States in the last few years? 

If you digest history for something a little closer to home, then what about the millions who migrated in the lead up to 1940 and beyond- fleeing persecution to Countries of safety ( safety comes in many forms to many, for some- just the safety of clean water and the availability of food is enough to warrant risking it all) 

Am I ‘Anti British’ for the second time of accusation- No, I’m realistic.

Stating I should go back to another Country is rather extreme- next you will be asking if I would like do so by ‘going forth and multiplying’

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8 hours ago, armsid said:

okay guys, what type of relationship with the EU does Turkey have regarding trade etc.i know that if i go to France and apply for work i will not get a job why? they actively employ french unless there is no one skilled at that job and they are fined if this is not adhered to i tried to get a job myself and was told french jobs for french people but as i did not record the incident i have no prooff. on subject 2 if germany goes into recession and jobs are on the line where will the axe strike?   here mini rolls bentley cheaper to closedown here than germany oh i forgot vauxhall which is making a proffit but not opel that is why GM sold it as to close down in germany would have been astronomicle under german law  and vauxhall was making a proffitt.               This setup has never been a level playing field and never will with germany ruling the roost.   3 .what type of border does Albania have with EU it is not a member  how is it patrolled how do goods flow every one thinks i am living in the70, not true i just dont like being lied to by our leaders and if we stay in heaven help us we will be no stronger than a parish  council  i walk through liecester city and find it hard to find an english voice i am not a racist and wonder how do we cope with the influx where are we finding the extra work homes doctors etc surely we must be able to have some control as it is getting to apoint where the workwanters will outnuber jobs rant over just a point about french dole it lasts for 2yrs  and it costs 25EUROS to see  a doctor as my sister found out.just imagine paying here

Only just seen this

Gosh, someone’s going to jump on me as above ( 😀)

Your experience in France is very likely but not true for all! 

Both of my nephews work for French Companies and neither are French ( one of them has worked for far too many different employers for it to have been a fluke to have been hired) 

My Brother works for a Monaco based Company and my Sister in law is self employed there, but then contracted by French Companies.

Ive many friends also employed there- luck of the draw? Who knows and it’s not a personal dig at all.

Employment benefit cut- too right, if you can’t find work ( any work, even if it’s not in your chosen field or you can’t be bothered) , then it’s cut- but your not “dropped” from the system and left with nothing- it changes to a different Social support.

Pay to see a Doctor at €25, that muted for over here to stop so many wasted appointments- what you don’t realise is that over there you have ‘basic’ right healthcare which all receive and a top up ‘mutual’ which is a Private policy that acts as a top up- if your on benefits and don’t have one of these, you don’t pay your €25 ( claimed back) and otherwise you Calum it back via your ‘mutual’ - here it’s been said, we need a radical shake up of the NHS, once again- not an EU “dictatorship” induced problem” - Free healthcare is not sustainable in any Country, nor provided

Closing down of Companies/subsidiary of say a Car maker- well if the UK didn’t have such poor Redundancy policies then the other Country might be on the receiving end of these closures- your always going to go for the cheapest option, unless National Pride tugs and says “keep this one open at all costs” 

It wouldn’t really be seen in the Public’s  eye as the right thing to close your own nations factory and keep another’s open- but, it happens all the time but we only hear of the high profile ones or we’ll know ‘Brands’

 

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10 hours ago, Retsdon said:

Apparently, things aren't as ready as they should be. The quote below is from the comment section of another website and comes from a logistics manager who, from what I can make out from his previous comments on that board, runs a pretty big operation. In other words I think he knows what he's talking about...

 ...you suggested a 'permit' to the port system and I have said we won't be sending trucks down unless we have clearance but a slight snag and we will have no choice the Govt aren't going that way. It's going to be (and why I haven't posted this before as this may change and a bit second hand) first come first served and you can get in the queue with no clearance, with clearance still having to queue, pop up DEPS e.g. Ebbsfleet car park D won't help. There is no golden ticket to get you past this. To make it worse vehicles that take back routes and jump the queue the govt are suggesting it's down to the port of Dover and the Tunnel to police it. Apparently at a meeting last week it caused some one from the Tunnel group to shout "This is ****" and port of Dover reps to put their head in their hands (2 sitting next to one of our reps) bit of a bun fight by all accounts
A sensible mitigation doesn't seem to be forth coming. So... we may be facing queues. Course they might come to their senses so take this how you want.

But we'll see...

Anyway, an edit to add in the latest. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-boris-johnson-deal-plan-deadline-ultimatum-latest-a9111066.html

" EU leaders have given Boris Johnson an ultimatum to come up with a new Brexit plan by the end of September or face up to a no deal.

The deadline, agreed at a meeting in Paris on Wednesday evening, comes as the bloc’s chief negotiator Michel Barnier told Mr Johnson to stop “pretending” to negotiate. On Wednesday evening French president Emmanuel Macron – who has taken the hardest line against the UK – met with Antti Rinne, Finland’s prime minister and the current holder of the rotating EU Council presidency.

“If the UK wants to discuss alternatives to the existing Brexit agreement then these must be presented before the end of the month,” Mr Rinne told reporters after the meeting in which the deadline was agreed. “We are both concerned about what is happening in Britain right now and the confusion that is going on from there to Europe. If no proposals are forthcoming, I believe that quite a few European leaders agree with the position. Then it’s over. Now is the time to come up with clear presentations and make them verifiable.”

As I said on this thread a couple of days ago  Europe was very obviously starting to lose patience with the dog and pony show that masquerades as political and governmental process in the UK. So it looks like they've finally had enough and it'll be No Deal Brexit according to schedule -  because there's about zero chance of Britain coming up with a viable alternative to the WA agreement. To illustrate how hopeless it is,  apparently Juncker, at their lunch yesterday actually had  to explain to Johnson the mechanics of how the Single Market works, and Johnson was left looking around at his aides saying 'Is this true?' Incredible really, but there we are. To paraphrase a saying - lions led by clowns.

Interesting times....

If only. I wish you’d stop teasing! 

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6 minutes ago, Scully said:

And there is the reason, and I would argue the biggest reason, why there is so much anger in the country. 

In order to address the article we need to put BREXIT to one side as Democracy does seem to have been affected by this whole saga.

But isn’t /hasn’t, this always been the case? how many times over the last thousands of years has the will of one set, been disregarded for another.

Had this been about a different subject then I doubt there would be the same furore.

But I do agree with you that there does seem to be a game played by all sides of the Brexit divide and Political spectrum, that is not in anyone’s interests.

 

Relating to the article though- biased to ‘Leave’ of course is once again it’s ref to the ‘Social elite’ and that it would be that only the rich are “Remainers” and out purely for profit- there are many Brexiteers who are also ‘Comfortable’ ( JRM, Johnson to name the first off my head) 

I read the article with impunity,  but detected rather more than pure democratic arguments and more of a Socialist undertone with “have’s and have not’s”

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38 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

In order to address the article we need to put BREXIT to one side as Democracy does seem to have been affected by this whole saga.

But isn’t /hasn’t, this always been the case? how many times over the last thousands of years has the will of one set, been disregarded for another.

Had this been about a different subject then I doubt there would be the same furore.

But I do agree with you that there does seem to be a game played by all sides of the Brexit divide and Political spectrum, that is not in anyone’s interests.

 

Relating to the article though- biased to ‘Leave’ of course is once again it’s ref to the ‘Social elite’ and that it would be that only the rich are “Remainers” and out purely for profit- there are many Brexiteers who are also ‘Comfortable’ ( JRM, Johnson to name the first off my head) 

I read the article with impunity,  but detected rather more than pure democratic arguments and more of a Socialist undertone with “have’s and have not’s”

Oh that's alright then, not just a minority refusing to accept the democratic will of the majority!

History has a lot to answer for!

Gordon Bennett!

Edited by TIGHTCHOKE

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41 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

In order to address the article we need to put BREXIT to one side as Democracy does seem to have been affected by this whole saga.

Thats an interesting (and correct) viewpoint , as , in this case, democracy has been put to one side to address Brexit, IE , to stop it.

 

43 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

But isn’t /hasn’t, this always been the case? how many times over the last thousands of years has the will of one set, been disregarded for another.

Had this been about a different subject then I doubt there would be the same furore.

Yes it has, the problem this time , despite the advent of the digital age, where statements are recorded for virtually instant recall, is that politicians have been caught out for their lies, contradictions and hypocrisy.
Its inescapable , and to many people in this country, Brexit was very important to them.
They were given a real voice, a voice to change something, a promise that that voice would be listened to , and carried out, for it it then to be be stalled, sidelined ad perverted.

Ive asked this question many times on here, just suppose...

The tories were a Eurosceptic government, and campaigned to leave, the BBC and 90 % of the media pushed leave.
The government promises to carry out the result.
Yet the people when given the  vote via referendum, somehow voted by majority of 52- 48 % to remain .
So we remain right ?
But no, the government, with the backing of the majority in parliament, says we are going to leave anyway, because the remainers didnt know what they were voting for !
People like Farage threaten to take the government to supreme court if we dont leave by the end of the article 50 2 year ending ?
The EU even offer us a 'better deal ' to stay , but we reject it and go WTO ?
The winning vote has been ignored , YOUR vote has been ignored, and democracy is in tatters..

How would you feel about that ?

59 minutes ago, Jaymo said:

But I do agree with you that there does seem to be a game played by all sides of the Brexit divide and Political spectrum, that is not in anyone’s interests.

No , its not.

 

1 hour ago, Jaymo said:

Relating to the article though- biased to ‘Leave’ of course is once again it’s ref to the ‘Social elite’ and that it would be that only the rich are “Remainers” and out purely for profit- there are many Brexiteers who are also ‘Comfortable’ ( JRM, Johnson to name the first off my head) 

The difference is, they dont pretend to be anything they are not.

 

1 hour ago, Jaymo said:

I read the article with impunity,  but detected rather more than pure democratic arguments and more of a Socialist undertone with “have’s and have not’s”

There are 'haves and have nots' in life.
The point of the piece is that a persons standing in life, does not affect the fact their vote counts the same as anyone elses.

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2 hours ago, Jaymo said:

In order to address the article we need to put BREXIT to one side as Democracy does seem to have been affected by this whole saga.

But isn’t /hasn’t, this always been the case? how many times over the last thousands of years has the will of one set, been disregarded for another.

Had this been about a different subject then I doubt there would be the same furore.

But I do agree with you that there does seem to be a game played by all sides of the Brexit divide and Political spectrum, that is not in anyone’s interests.

 

Relating to the article though- biased to ‘Leave’ of course is once again it’s ref to the ‘Social elite’ and that it would be that only the rich are “Remainers” and out purely for profit- there are many Brexiteers who are also ‘Comfortable’ ( JRM, Johnson to name the first off my head) 

I read the article with impunity,  but detected rather more than pure democratic arguments and more of a Socialist undertone with “have’s and have not’s”

I don’t think you’re seeing the bigger picture. 

The British as a nation, do a lot of complaining, but in general, knowing that their vote doesn’t count for a lot as they aren’t generally listened to ( politicians will promise anything to get elected and then just ignore their pledges once elected, hence voter apathy ) tend to do their whinging and then just accept their lot in life and get on with it and vote, because what else have they got? Their vote is their only way to have a voice.

For decades we have increasingly been told by the social elite; how we should think, what we should and shouldn’t say, we are told that we should be ashamed of our colonial past and the acts of our ancestors, we are told we should be offended by this but not that, what we should accept and what we shouldn’t. What we should laugh at and what we shouldn’t. 

Basically, and rightly or wrongly, when given the referendum, the social elite gave what they regard as the socially inept a chance to have their say, and those socially inept saw it as a chance to finally make a difference and have their voices heard, but yet again, prior to this, the social elite preached to us about what we should do with this vote and the dire consequences for all ( especially them ) if we didn’t do as we were told by those who claim to know best, and what it would say about those who voted in any other way except what the elite wanted. 

The majority of people may have seen this as a massive opportunity to once and for all, let those smug, patronising and condescending social elite really know what they thought of them, and responded with a massive two fingered gesture. I doubt any of them thought they would win; I know I didn’t and if I’m correct I don’t think Farage did either. 

We’re British; we don’t do civil unrest very well, and in truth who wants that;  but the socially elite establishment reacted with such venom towards those who had dared to defy them, and with such bile, that they are now attempting to ignore and overturn the one and only option those people had to have their voices heard.

I’m more concerned with the effect this will have on domestic politics and our democracy than anything as trivial as leaving without a deal. 

I am genuinely gobsmacked as to just how restrained those purple faced, racist, homophobic brexiteers are. 

 

Edited by Scully

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12 hours ago, Dave-G said:

Tried to find this earlier but it had been fairly well hidden from facebook plebs: For Guy Henry regarding hidden EU skulduggery.

http://veteransforbritain.uk/whitehallbriefing/

Skulldugery indeed, a leave campaigning group (vets for britain) who receive money from Vote Leave Ltd. give a partial tract of a speech given by someone who has not been a serving member of HM frontline forces for 10 years and is a member of Brexit central, never mind that he is the one who made the decision to disband the Iraqi army after the invasion which of course led to looting, lawlessness and the rise of ISIS.

Not the guy I would have in mind for telling us who and what to believe.

(All on the `tinterweb and took 24 minutes to glean so not something that is hidden or removed from social media)

Edited by henry d
Addendum

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2 hours ago, henry d said:

Skulldugery indeed, a leave campaigning group (vets for britain) who receive money from Vote Leave Ltd. give a partial tract of a speech given by someone who has not been a serving member of HM frontline forces for 10 years and is a member of Brexit central, never mind that he is the one who made the decision to disband the Iraqi army after the invasion which of course led to looting, lawlessness and the rise of ISIS.

Not the guy I would have in mind for telling us who and what to believe.

Interesting , if he had been a remain campaigning Lt General, making a speech about how we NEED an EU army, I wonder if he would attract such venom to your highly trained eye ?

It comes to something when a persons professional  opinion on a matter can be called into question because of his Brexit stance?
I suppose it comes down to the sub conscious idea that , within the minds of remainers, a Brexiters thinking is somewhat skewed, either that or they are just thick ?
No doubt he achieved his rank by some subterfuge , and our Henry is intellectually and strategically head and shoulders above him.

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Aside from all the for and against BREXIT eloquent arguments, pearls of wisdom etc. constantly trotted out on this thread, isn't it about time we all just nail our colours to the mast?

As I've said previously, I didn't vote one way or the other and would benefit personally from staying in the EU.  However, I think democracy is more important that my personal preference.

So, try if you can to answer to answer the following question with a simple YES or NO, without adding qualifications, if's, but's and all that malarkey🙄

 

Do you think we should honour the 2016 Democratic Referendum Result?

1 minute ago, KB1 said:

Do you think we should honour the 2016 Democratic Referendum Result?

YES

Edited by KB1

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6 minutes ago, henry d said:

Probably better as a seperate thread, you can use the poll button too IIRC.

Maybe you are right, but I thought it would be interesting leaving it in this thread, just to see if folk can answer a simple YES or NO🥴

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14 minutes ago, KB1 said:

Do you think we should honour the 2016 Democratic Referendum Result?

Yes

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18 minutes ago, KB1 said:

Do you think we should honour the 2016 Democratic Referendum Result?

Yes.

I voted remain, but accept that leave won, so let's just get on and leave.

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Very yes - regardless if food etc costs me more - maybe even vegetable patches in our back gardens might make a general comeback.

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