panoma1 Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 41 minutes ago, oowee said: Precisely why we should demand they set out the implications of the choice. Why? After we’re out, they will only change things to suit themselves, their own self interest and/or their own agenda anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 Quote Precisely why we should demand they set out the implications of the choice. The problem for Remainers is that David Cameron did spell out the implications and posted them through each and every letterbox. A bigger problem is that some couldn't read, others refused to grasp what was said. They are still in denial. They keep saying that we should have negotiated before the Referendum. Another problem is that this was also done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB1 Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: KB1 framed the question against anyone who is not comfortable with no deal. I am unable to answer either yes or no without qualification so abstained from answering. I actually 'framed' the question to see who believes in 'Democracy'…… That's why I said "Just answer YES or NO" if you can🥴 In my humble opinion, you can't answer YES with a bag full of qualifications! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, KB1 said: I actually 'framed' the question to see who believes in 'Democracy'…… That's why I said "Just answer YES or NO" if you can🥴 In my humble opinion, you can't answer YES with a bag full of qualifications! Is it possible to answer NO with a bag full of qualifications? I believe in democracy in just the same way I believe in religion, they definitely both exist. Conversely I do not believe in Santa Claus or Unicorns, they definitely don't exist. The problem with black and white YES or NO is that it does not adequately address the complexities of the reality of Brexit. Edited September 21, 2019 by Raja Clavata qualifications not questions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said: But the flip side is we should not accept leave at all costs without any further public consultation, for reasons I have stated previously. In what form? For how long? The cynical side of me thinks this is just a stalling tactic, or a means to keep kicking the can until the 'right' decision is made ,IE Remain. 1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said: So the reality is we probably need a further extension and try to thrash out an improved deal. Unfortunately I don’t believe BoJo or his government are capable of doing that. As you know I advocated giving him time, in this time he has nailed his true colours to the mast, the sooner he goes the better. The EU have been consistent in the claim , that there is NO better deal than what is on the table now, so how are we going to ' thrash out' a better one ? The remain MPs have legally removed any leverage that Boris had to get a better deal, but its Boris's fault ?? You advocated giving him time ? Hes had 2 months ! May had 3 years , and the best she could do was roundly rejected by 80% of MPs. The no deal path Boris chose to try was defeated by 30 votes, so who was the more successful negotiator ? How can you believe that there is some kind of alternative way of dealing with Brussels, it beggars belief ! 1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said: As a nation we have regressed even further than where we were 3 months ago. You think ? You want to see regression, anger ? Wait till Nov 1 st and we havnt left, again. 1 hour ago, oowee said: Its precisely because democracy counts that its essential that the public vote for something tangible and measurable. This is not some made on a whim choice, this is fundamental change to the economics and potentialy structure of the UK. I expect our politicians to spell out precisely what we are getting into. Unfortunatley our sound bite system lacks the opportunity for constructive public debate. OK , so if we have ANOTHER referendum, and we put down. A. Leave on WTO terms. B.Leave with mays WA. C. Labours 6 tests adhered to (pretty much remain) D. Scrap the lot and Remain. Now , lets leave the fact out that many MPs in labour, and all of the SNP ,Lib dems, Change UK , have said they will respect NOTHING less than remain, and will only support that. A 4 way vote ? How will that clear anything up ? A split vote with Maybe the winner being Mays deal, do parliament get to vote and reject it again? WTO wins by 35 %? ,parliament blocks it as 'undemocratic' Remain wins with 40 %? The country wonders what happened to the majority vote of 2016, Maybe 52% are somewhat annoyed ? Play with the figures, it all ends in tears. A 3 way vote , remove labours daftness, that now means labour wont support the result AGAIN (Back to square 1) A 2 way vote, between WTO and Remain ? (Deja Vu?) Can you see how your argument is both flawed and pointless, Im not even going to mention undemocratic. Whichever way you look at it, you CANNOT ignore 2016. If you do, if parliament does, there will be such a shake up of British politics, that you will wish they had let Boris have his no deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 1 hour ago, Mice! said: He asked Yes or No, should the referendum result be honoured? you somehow think that is worded against you as a remain voter? Yes the referendum result should be honoured either through agreement by parliament or going back to the people if they are unable to reach agreement. Forcing through no deal does not represent a democratic outcome in my opinion as I believe the percentage of the public in favour of this overall are in the minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB1 Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Is it possible to answer NO with a bag full of qualifications? I believe in democracy in just the same way I believe in religion, they definitely both exist. Conversely I do not believe in Santa Claus or Unicorns, they definitely don't exist. The problem with black and white YES or NO is that it does not adequately address the complexities of the reality of Brexit. Not really an answer in there🤔 Guttted about the Santa bit though😢 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 Just now, Raja Clavata said: Yes the referendum result should be honoured You say this. 1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said: either through agreement by parliament or going back to the people if they are unable to reach agreement. Then this . Can you not see the conflict ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 There are many eays to run a vote. It can be progressove rather than binary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 Just now, oowee said: There are many eays to run a vote. It can be progressove rather than binary. You say that, but do you believe it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Rewulf said: You say this. Then this . Can you not see the conflict ? I'm sure you are familiar with the semantic difference between SHOULD and MUST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB1 Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 1 minute ago, oowee said: There are many eays to run a vote. It can be progressove rather than binary. Yes, but not retrospectively…... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 The conflict here and reason for the impasse is that some people who won the vote will accept no compromise whatsoever on the details. It's starting to border on paranoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 Just now, Raja Clavata said: The conflict here and reason for the impasse is that some people who won the vote will accept no compromise whatsoever on the details. It's starting to border on paranoid. I wonder at the motivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 12 minutes ago, Rewulf said: In what form? For how long? The cynical side of me thinks this is just a stalling tactic, or a means to keep kicking the can until the 'right' decision is made ,IE Remain. The EU have been consistent in the claim , that there is NO better deal than what is on the table now, so how are we going to ' thrash out' a better one ? The remain MPs have legally removed any leverage that Boris had to get a better deal, but its Boris's fault ?? You advocated giving him time ? Hes had 2 months ! May had 3 years , and the best she could do was roundly rejected by 80% of MPs. The no deal path Boris chose to try was defeated by 30 votes, so who was the more successful negotiator ? How can you believe that there is some kind of alternative way of dealing with Brussels, it beggars belief ! You think ? You want to see regression, anger ? Wait till Nov 1 st and we havnt left, again. OK , so if we have ANOTHER referendum, and we put down. A. Leave on WTO terms. B.Leave with mays WA. C. Labours 6 tests adhered to (pretty much remain) D. Scrap the lot and Remain. Now , lets leave the fact out that many MPs in labour, and all of the SNP ,Lib dems, Change UK , have said they will respect NOTHING less than remain, and will only support that. A 4 way vote ? How will that clear anything up ? A split vote with Maybe the winner being Mays deal, do parliament get to vote and reject it again? WTO wins by 35 %? ,parliament blocks it as 'undemocratic' Remain wins with 40 %? The country wonders what happened to the majority vote of 2016, Maybe 52% are somewhat annoyed ? Play with the figures, it all ends in tears. A 3 way vote , remove labours daftness, that now means labour wont support the result AGAIN (Back to square 1) A 2 way vote, between WTO and Remain ? (Deja Vu?) Can you see how your argument is both flawed and pointless, Im not even going to mention undemocratic. Whichever way you look at it, you CANNOT ignore 2016. If you do, if parliament does, there will be such a shake up of British politics, that you will wish they had let Boris have his no deal. It's not about ignoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I'm sure you are familiar with the semantic difference between SHOULD and MUST. Your statement was totally contradictory ! 'The referendum result SHOULD be honoured...either through agreement by parliament or going back to the people if they are unable to reach agreement. When did it become parliaments decision, what if parliament NEVER ratifies the PEOPLES vote ? Can you see the problem? 1 minute ago, oowee said: I wonder at the motivation. I wonder about the motivation for remain too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 10 minutes ago, KB1 said: Not really an answer in there🤔 Guttted about the Santa bit though😢 I think I have answered above, note the unavoidable qualification between should and must. sorry for non compliance with your instructions on the format of the response. I already clarified my issue with the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 Just now, Raja Clavata said: It's not about ignoring. Oh Im sorry , the vote has been carried out then ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 Just now, Rewulf said: Oh Im sorry , the vote has been carried out then ? the vote was carried out, a conclusion on an acceptable outcome to implement the result has not yet been found, and may never be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 Just now, Raja Clavata said: the vote was carried out, a conclusion on an acceptable outcome to implement the result has not yet been found, and may never be... So we ignore the will of the 52 % in 2016 then ? Have another vote , till we get a leave minority ? Kick the can, till people become than numb they dont bother voting anymore ? Do what the lib dems suggest and just scrap it, IE IGNORE the vote ? Why dont we have an election ? Then vote on WTO or Mays deal ? 2 options . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oowee Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 I cant see a GE helping the situation. Lib dems will only scrap the vote if they get a majority for it. Same as no deal for brexit party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 7 minutes ago, Rewulf said: So we ignore the will of the 52 % in 2016 then ? Have another vote , till we get a leave minority ? Kick the can, till people become than numb they dont bother voting anymore ? Do what the lib dems suggest and just scrap it, IE IGNORE the vote ? Why dont we have an election ? Then vote on WTO or Mays deal ? 2 options . right now the priority should be avoiding crashing out with no deal at the end of next month. Ideally parliament would not have blocked no deal but their hand was forced by a PM and government with zero integrity, same reason that the GE option was not taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 1 minute ago, oowee said: I cant see a GE helping the situation. Lib dems will only scrap the vote if they get a majority for it. Same as no deal for brexit party. If we have a GE then at least the various parties positions can be given some credence , if the electorate dont like a Brexit stance, then then can boot that MP out. That at least legitimises their position, so how does that not help the situation~? What you actually mean Grant , is that a GE will not help labours / the remain situation, because you KNOW exactly whats going to happen, they will lose seats by the bucket load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB1 Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 Thank goodness someone's trying to hold parliament to account👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted September 21, 2019 Report Share Posted September 21, 2019 Just now, Raja Clavata said: right now the priority should be avoiding crashing out with no deal at the end of next month. Ideally parliament would not have blocked no deal but their hand was forced by a PM and government with zero integrity, same reason that the GE option was not taken. Thats rubbish. The GE option wasnt taken because they feared it , end of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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