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Evening, I was just wondering if people have reloaded itx 10 with standard fibre wads? I've done a bit of research, plastic wads and fibre shot cups have been mentioned a lot but not much talk of traditional fibre wads. The reason for my question is I'm considering buying some itx 10 to load for a 20 bore, cheers. 

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No, only ever used it in plastic wads.  Never really impressed with the patterning but that was in a 410 and #5s.  On rre occasions I need non toxic for ducks I purchase a few factory bismuth, so cannot help.

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16 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

No, only ever used it in plastic wads.  Never really impressed with the patterning but that was in a 410 and #5s.  On rre occasions I need non toxic for ducks I purchase a few factory bismuth, so cannot help.

 No worries, was hoping to load a few in the near future to simply stem the boredom until I can get out on the Marsh. :good:

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Grenergp on here was very helpful and knowledgeable regarding ITX 10. I have hand loaded it and like it although i kept to recipes and plastic, Fibre shot cup would be fine, I think C&G recommend a protective wad but then they would

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Tungsten depending on shot make up will do harm to your barrels if not encased. Some shot is ok others not.

I'd use fiber shot cups and not take a chance.

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Don't know if it's just me but couldn't see fibre shot cups in 20g on clay & game. 

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1 hour ago, figgy said:

Don't appear to have them. Plastic wad seems the only choice.

I was going to say 'non-fibre' to hoodwink the environmentalists but hey ho.... :good:

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Got to use non toxic shot but plastics ok. Never did figure that one out.

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i did a nontox series in 12gauge. i was impressed with the itx10 stuff. 

mainly for duck though. i would serious consider loading up +2 shotsizes to be as equivalent as lead (and that would be at 40 yards too) 

 

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Bpi confirmes to me by email that is safe to shoot with regular wads and in very old guns too without protection. The pellet is half the hardness of the barrel's steel so, no issues with that. The only thing I found from my tests is that the pattern is wider without shot cup and this is probability due to pellet deformation. I shoot it successfully with lead wads.

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9 hours ago, Continental Shooter said:

Bpi confirmes to me by email that is safe to shoot with regular wads and in very old guns too without protection. The pellet is half the hardness of the barrel's steel so, no issues with that. The only thing I found from my tests is that the pattern is wider without shot cup and this is probability due to pellet deformation. I shoot it successfully with lead wads.

That will do for me..:good:

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19 hours ago, Continental Shooter said:

Bpi confirmes to me by email that is safe to shoot with regular wads and in very old guns too without protection. The pellet is half the hardness of the barrel's steel so, no issues with that. The only thing I found from my tests is that the pattern is wider without shot cup and this is probability due to pellet deformation. I shoot it successfully with lead wads.

Thanks for that, I had read people use it in old guns but mainly with plastic wads. Nice to know fibre is an option 

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I believe both ITX and ITM shot is made using Tungsten powder? And that ITX shot is harder than ITM? Tungsten is harder than the steel used for gun barrels, I have been home loading, using ITM in my 8 bore for several years, always with a totally enclosed card wad cup! I was warned when I first purchased ITM shot that using it without a totally enclosed wad would result in scored/scratched bores.......surely that advice applies for ITX (as its apparently harder than ITM) too?

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You will score your barrels with this shot if it's not fully enclosed .

I've scored mine in an old gun, luckily noticed before I ruined it .

Old w .Richard's liverpool double 10b . 

 

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Its toungsten based it needs protection for bores, Nice and ITX 10 and ITM are abrasive will effect barrel . Bismuth or pure copper fine shot to barrel but toungsten based i agree with the last two posts, its a bad idea.

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Posted (edited)

I invite people to know what they shoot and how they shoot it 

ITX-10 is the only one that is almost as soft as lead; ITM is a matrix (Iron Tungsten Matrix) and like all tungsten matrices (TSS; ITX-13, etc) needs a shotcup.   

If you do not do your homkework or know the hardness that is your problem; I researched ITX-10 for months before using ... but, as I always said, there are a bunch of cowboys reloaders on this forum that believe you can put any random primers/powder/wad/shot in a hull without any test or consequence and produce wonder ... you do follow them at your own peril (or your barrel's)

That's BPI response to me:

**************************************************************************************************************************************************************

Yes, we have used the ITX-10 very successfully in combination with Gualandi wads.  ITX-10 is significantly softer than modern steel barrels.  A mylar wrap might be used inside the shotcup as a protective barrier if the shooter is using a classic firearm, but is not necessary.

 Note that ITX still requires its own load recipes and cannot be interchanged 1 for 1 with lead.  There are unique pressures generated by the two mediums due their difference in density.

ITX-13 is a harder, denser material and can only be used in shotcups rated for steel or tungsten shot.

****************************************************************************************************************************************************

I am not geniuous when it comes to non-toxic; but i know my physics very well and i know who to go to for advise ... 

ITX-10 it's safe; it's half the hardness of the tempered steel the barrels are made of; it can be squashed with pliers (try it; if they don't they're not ITX-10)... that's all you need to know safety wise; physically, it cannot score the barrels as will deform in the barrel, it's like trying to dig a hole in a concrete wall using a plastic spoon...

I've been been shooting it on all guns form Beretta A300 series to Browning all in 20 bore where pressures run higher than 12 .... and still have to see anything on the barrels; my mates shoots them in a Benelli 1970 same results;  also worth noting that original ITX-10 field test by BPI has been carreid out with a 1930's gun shooting

the only thing i'd say is that if you want to use fiber wad, then you have to use a mylar wrap or your patterns will be very wide and ineffective; also, make sure speed is between 1350 and 1450 fps as BPI advise this is the range they deem lethal for passing duck and geese.

anything below can be used for decoying.

I have 2 proofed loads that came in at just belo and around 1350; but since pressure is low i adjust them to suit and they do work

Cheers,

Edited by Continental Shooter

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As a debating point I have no doubt that ITX shot is malleable and will squash like lead, as it is designed to be malleable, it is a compound made of various ingredients one of which is Tungsten powder....Tungsten is, I understand much harder than the steel gun barrels are made from, so would not any tungsten that came into contact with the bore abrade/scratch it?

Iron, Tungsten Matrix? I understood ITM stood for Impact Tungsten Matrix........and has plastic binding agent in its shot formula?....it is not recommended for use without a totally enclosed wad, as it contains Tungsten powder and the manufacturers accept the Tungsten will abrade/scratch the guns bore!
 

I Have not confirmed whether ITX10 will scratch a guns bore if it’s not contained within a totally enclosed wad....for the reasons I give above, I have never used it without one!

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As it's tungsten powder we're talking about, the diameter is in micron which renders the effect on other medium insignificant compared to a pellet formed by pure tungsten - or a majority of it. 
The same principle that allow the pellet to deform on contact with the barrel, makes the frictions less effective unlike harder pellets where the friction (might) cause scoring due to the harder compound's inability to modify its status.
In my studies on ITX-10, what I gathered form the manufacturer (although they've not bee open or disclose any technical information) is that the tungsten powder -with a specific weight of 19.25- is far heavier than the other material which is compounded with (iron, copper, etc.); therefore when the material is alloyed with resins (not plastic) the tungsten will tend to sink dipper in the compounding medium forming the core, while other material will layer -based on specific weight- with the lighter one sitting as outer layer, meaning tungsten should never be in contact with the barrel. 

However, with the increase in tungsten % (i.e.ITX-13) the core increases too making the deformation impossible or insignificant hence why it must be used with an enclosing wad; perfect example is TSS which is the harder (18 g/cc) and it's advisable to use only certain non-toxic wad made of ticcker plastick.


On the plus side, the fully enclosing wad (and/or using mylar wraps) guarantees the pattern is very compact, more steel like, compared to the lead wad or fibre. This will help especially when targetting geese at range where #2 or #0 will have a lesser pellet count per ounce and you will need as many pellet as possible on the target.

It is also true that hyper speed won't work too well with ITX-10 with with speed enclosed between 1350-1450 producing better penetration on 10% gelatine.

 

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3 hours ago, Continental Shooter said:

As it's tungsten powder we're talking about, the diameter is in micron which renders the effect on other medium insignificant compared to a pellet formed by pure tungsten - or a majority of it. 
The same principle that allow the pellet to deform on contact with the barrel, makes the frictions less effective unlike harder pellets where the friction (might) cause scoring due to the harder compound's inability to modify its status.
In my studies on ITX-10, what I gathered form the manufacturer (although they've not bee open or disclose any technical information) is that the tungsten powder -with a specific weight of 19.25- is far heavier than the other material which is compounded with (iron, copper, etc.); therefore when the material is alloyed with resins (not plastic) the tungsten will tend to sink dipper in the compounding medium forming the core, while other material will layer -based on specific weight- with the lighter one sitting as outer layer, meaning tungsten should never be in contact with the barrel. 

However, with the increase in tungsten % (i.e.ITX-13) the core increases too making the deformation impossible or insignificant hence why it must be used with an enclosing wad; perfect example is TSS which is the harder (18 g/cc) and it's advisable to use only certain non-toxic wad made of ticcker plastick.


On the plus side, the fully enclosing wad (and/or using mylar wraps) guarantees the pattern is very compact, more steel like, compared to the lead wad or fibre. This will help especially when targetting geese at range where #2 or #0 will have a lesser pellet count per ounce and you will need as many pellet as possible on the target.

It is also true that hyper speed won't work too well with ITX-10 with with speed enclosed between 1350-1450 producing better penetration on 10% gelatine.

 

I accept the powder tungsten would be less abrasive in lower amounts, but I struggle to see how it could, even in lesser amounts, totally eliminate abrasive action on a guns bore?
I seem to recall ITX data revealing that ITX pellets were harder than those of ITM?..........And that ITM data insisted that a totally enclosed wad was essential to prevent damage to a guns bore!

I am also aware that original Hevishot is not malleable and harder than the steel gun barrels are made from, so a totally enclosed wad is essential, however the later sintered Hevishot, because it is crushable, is ok to use with ordinary wads.......even fibre wads? I can’t get my head around that one either....because both contain tungsten!

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i pretty much air on the side of caution and have full cup wads and such. 

the niceshot contains tungsten to and is suited to lead shot wads. i think there is credible data .

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3 hours ago, panoma1 said:

I accept the powder tungsten would be less abrasive in lower amounts, but I struggle to see how it could, even in lesser amounts, totally eliminate abrasive action on a guns bore?
I seem to recall ITX data revealing that ITX pellets were harder than those of ITM?..........And that ITM data insisted that a totally enclosed wad was essential to prevent damage to a guns bore!

I am also aware that original Hevishot is not malleable and harder than the steel gun barrels are made from, so a totally enclosed wad is essential, however the later sintered Hevishot, because it is crushable, is ok to use with ordinary wads.......even fibre wads? I can’t get my head around that one either....because both contain tungsten!

I just go with what the retailer (BPI) says and my discussions, through professional intermediaries, with the manufacturer. On the BPI manual there are tons of loads using gualandi wads for lead and I don't think they would risk having to refund barrels across the globe, should the itx-10 score the barrel's.  What you're getting confused with, and this is in my second post, is the itx-13 (which is harder then itx-10 and all sub 13g/cc pellets).  Again, we should all do our homeworks and know what we're shooting without trusting unreliable/unverifiable sources on forums. Unless you trust the empiric, untested claims from Joe blogg in a forum more than manufacturer claims based on tests carried out in professional,highliy equipped labs. 

Bear in mind that steel is softer than barrels, probably by 1 or 2 RHF, yet it can score the barrel's. 

2 minutes ago, cookoff013 said:

i pretty much air on the side of caution and have full cup wads and such. 

the niceshot contains tungsten to and is suited to lead shot wads. i think there is credible data .

I'm not saying it should not be used, mind you. 

I have loads with it too for better long range performances. But as you know my tests were aimed at prroviding an alternative to steel on old guns to those who have no access to American powders (like in Italy) and it did the teick.

For those loading full wad cup: Please bear in mind that where BPI calls for a gualandi wad, subbing it with a steel wad will increase pressure to a higher degree

 

Cheers

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54 minutes ago, Continental Shooter said:

I just go with what the retailer (BPI) says and my discussions, through professional intermediaries, with the manufacturer. On the BPI manual there are tons of loads using gualandi wads for lead and I don't think they would risk having to refund barrels across the globe, should the itx-10 score the barrel's.  What you're getting confused with, and this is in my second post, is the itx-13 (which is harder then itx-10 and all sub 13g/cc pellets).  Again, we should all do our homeworks and know what we're shooting without trusting unreliable/unverifiable sources on forums. Unless you trust the empiric, untested claims from Joe blogg in a forum more than manufacturer claims based on tests carried out in professional,highliy equipped labs. 

Bear in mind that steel is softer than barrels, probably by 1 or 2 RHF, yet it can score the barrel's. 

I'm not saying it should not be used, mind you. 

I have loads with it too for better long range performances. But as you know my tests were aimed at prroviding an alternative to steel on old guns to those who have no access to American powders (like in Italy) and it did the teick.

For those loading full wad cup: Please bear in mind that where BPI calls for a gualandi wad, subbing it with a steel wad will increase pressure to a higher degree

 

Cheers

I purchased ITX when it first came onto the market, because I was short on ITM at the time! (for handloading for 8 bore) I imagine that was ITX10? (Not ITX 13!) I am quoting data/information from the supplier at the time, that ITX was harder than ITM, logically if ITX10 is harder than ITM, and the suppliers of ITM state, in order to prevent damage to the guns bore, it should only be used with a totally enclosed wad, it follows ITX10 also requires a totally enclosed wad!......I have always “done my homework” and always err on the safety side....hence I stick to published formulas, only using totally enclosed wads and/or a wrap, when using any shot containing tungsten!

We are going around in circles here, so I think after having my say, ill leave it at that! 👍

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, panoma1 said:

I purchased ITX when it first came onto the market, because I was short on ITM at the time! (for handloading for 8 bore) I imagine that was ITX10? (Not ITX 13!) I am quoting data/information from the supplier at the time, that ITX was harder than ITM, logically if ITX10 is harder than ITM, and the suppliers of ITM state, in order to prevent damage to the guns bore, it should only be used with a totally enclosed wad, it follows ITX10 also requires a totally enclosed wad!......I have always “done my homework” and always err on the safety side....hence I stick to published formulas, only using totally enclosed wads and/or a wrap, when using any shot containing tungsten!

We are going around in circles here, so I think after having my say, ill leave it at that! 👍

Yeah I think you better leaving it, for the sake of others. You still bangin on about stuff you 'ASSUME' without any knowledge base or research. And this is dangerous in relaoding. You're not even able to quote a single reputable source you spoke with and you didn't buy/download the manual to acculturate yourselve on what you put through your gun, yet, you still feel the right to challenge the manufacrurer research and claims....

FYI: You can't just buy itx, it doesn't exist in the market (or you've been duped by dodgy seller) it's clearly labeled itx-10 and itx-13 exactly to avoid dangerous confusions where they are different material with different ballistic and physical components and marketed for reloading with different materials and loads.

Obviously, and with all due respect, it appears homework were superficial at best and lacking basic understanding. Also, not knowing the difference in hardness of the two materials you purchased (as you assume) shows great lack of understanding and research. 

This is the problem, people feel free to showcase their lack of knowledge and share it endlessly, ending up arguing when challanged with evidence based info.

Until proven otherwise, or BPI backtracking on their claim, itx-10 CAN be shot without protection that is the only truth, everything else is just conjectures and assumptions.

If a full shot cup makes you feel more secure, fine; if it gives you better pattern, fine. But definitely not required

Edited by Continental Shooter

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panoma 1 is a respected opinion on this Forum and I have to say I find your posts, criticising him, to be patronising in the extreme.

 

Quote

 acculturate 

PS - Are you sure you mean that?

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