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Diplomatic immunity?


Retsdon
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Reminds me of an incident a couple of years ago outside Shap on the A6. A woman I once went out with when we were teens, was driving to work one dark winters morning and hit head on a wagon which was on her side of the road. She died at the scene. 
The driver ( an Eastern European driving an eastern European company artic ) having slept for the night in a lay by, set off on his merry way.....on the wrong side of the road. 
It was assumed neither was aware that the oncoming lights were on the same side of the road until it was too late. 
As an aside, the woman’s husband was ( still is as far as I know ) a part time fireman and responded to his bleeper. Apparently, and fortunately, he was spared the horror of arriving there to discover it was his wife, by another fireman who knew her and prevented him doing so. 
I can’t recall the outcome regards a prosecution; nor even if there was one, but at least the driver didn’t flee the country. 

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5 hours ago, Retsdon said:

I wondered this myself, but apparently they don't. https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14370 . But the point I made up the thread about inadvertently turning the wrong way still stands. It's really easy to do, even after having being in country for a while. On that score I was given a very good tip an old ex-pat when I first arrived here. And the tip was  - don't think about being on the left or the right, just make sure you put yourself and the steering wheel in the middle of the road  and your passenger kerbside, and as long as your car is local you won't be wrong. And it works. It's easier to remember NEVER TO BE  kerbside than to remember to be either on the left or right. 

I live reasonably close to the accident site and RAF base, and have shot on farms in the vicinity, there's more than a few LHD cars floating around the area, one would assume belonging to either employees at the camp or being used by family members. 

Edited by PhilR
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1 hour ago, Scully said:

but at least the driver didn’t flee the country. 

I can't help feeling that the decision probably wasn't hers to make. If her husband worked in some kind of spook job on the base the US Embassy wouldn't want his wife tied up here in a court case, or even worse spending time in prison. She initially said she had no plans to go anywhere and next thing she and the whole family had been spirited out of the country -  and I think that decision came from higher up. I can't share all the opprobrium being heaped on her without knowing the full facts. For all we know she might be distraught by what happened and is being told to stay incommunicado.

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4 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

I can't help feeling that the decision probably wasn't hers to make. If her husband worked in some kind of spook job on the base the US Embassy wouldn't want his wife tied up here in a court case, or even worse spending time in prison. She initially said she had no plans to go anywhere and next thing she and the whole family had been spirited out of the country -  and I think that decision came from higher up. I can't share all the opprobrium being heaped on her without knowing the full facts. For all we know she might be distraught by what happened and is being told to stay incommunicado.

I agree entirely, but in the opinion of others she has done a runner. 
If she’s a mother herself, the fact she’s killed another mothers child and faced no consequences will ( possibly;  I don’t know what sort of person she is )  haunt her for the rest of her life....hopefully. 
 

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Personally I think it’s abhorrent whatever the job your husband has that you can do a runner and not face the due legal process especially in a fatality. Whatever the intended purpose of diplomatic immunity it shouldn’t be a free ticket to escape any consequence of your actions. This lad is dead and accident or not it sucks big hairy ones to be able to hop on a plane and think everything is hunky dory

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6 hours ago, The Mighty Prawn said:

This lad is dead and accident or not it sucks big hairy ones to be able to hop on a plane and think everything is hunky dory

How do you know she thinks everything is hunky dory? I would be very surprised if she does. It's fair to argue that diplomatic immunity shouldn't extend to cases like this, but there's no evidence that this woman herself wished to run away. More like that the American government doesn't, as a matter of policy, allow its 'diplomats' or their family members to stand in front of foreign courts while on active service.

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On 07/10/2019 at 09:21, Zapp said:

Diplomatic immunity may be waived by the country of origin of the diplomat in the case of a serious crime unconnected with diplomatic duties.  Individuals cannot waive their own immunity.

This has happened before in cases such as manslaughter, so it would be entirely possible for the US to act to ensure this criminal will be prosecuted.  But it won't.

You seem to have convicted her decided that she is a criminal before any court case to prove it..

If she ever goes to court and is proven under law to be guilty then she is a criminal and not before in my eye's 

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4 hours ago, Retsdon said:

How do you know she thinks everything is hunky dory? I would be very surprised if she does. It's fair to argue that diplomatic immunity shouldn't extend to cases like this, but there's no evidence that this woman herself wished to run away. More like that the American government doesn't, as a matter of policy, allow its 'diplomats' or their family members to stand in front of foreign courts while on active service.

This.

She was co-operating with the authorities.  I'd bet good money on the fact someone high up in the State Dept. ordered the family's return.

Diplomatic immunity exists to prevent host country Governments taking revenge on foreign Government representatives, by say, throwing them in prison on trumped up charges, or constantly harassing them for imagined traffic infractions.  It shouldn't be necessary in a civilised country with the rule of law, and concepts like habeus corpus and innocent until proven guilty (something people would do well to remember on this thread).  But, the point is, it applies equally across all countries, regardless of whether it's a tinpot dictatorship or an (allegedly) functioning democracy.

It's an important protection for diplomats working in countries where the rule of law is...flexible.  If you worked in the foreign office, and were posted to some...developing nation with a poor record on human rights, known for executing people without the inconvenience of a trial, would you sign up for that?

Diplomatic immunity is a bit like democracy; in that it's a terrible system, but it's the least-worst system we have.

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51 minutes ago, Scully said:

Because if it doesn’t haunt her conscience she’s got away scot free. 

But you wanted her conscience haunted 'for the rest of her life' - which seems a bit harsh. She had a lapse of concentration that pretty much everyone I know who has ever had to swap between driving on the right and left has also experienced at one time or another. By good luck, we haven't done harm; by extreme bad luck, she did. But a second or two earlier or later and the accident quite possibly wouldn't have occurred and this thread wouldn't exist. And as I pointed out up the thread, it's very unlikely that the decision to leave the country was hers, or even that she had any say in it.

Because there's  a victim, there doesn't always need to be a full-on perp. Sometimes accidents happen because of momentary lapses .Perhaps I'm soft, but it doesn't seem enough to condemn someone to a life of torment for. :) I don't imagine her dreams will be very pleasant for a long time though..

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3 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

But you wanted her conscience haunted 'for the rest of her life' - which seems a bit harsh. She had a lapse of concentration that pretty much everyone I know who has ever had to swap between driving on the right and left has also experienced at one time or another. By good luck, we haven't done harm; by extreme bad luck, she did. But a second or two earlier or later and the accident quite possibly wouldn't have occurred and this thread wouldn't exist. And as I pointed out up the thread, it's very unlikely that the decision to leave the country was hers, or even that she had any say in it.

Because there's  a victim, there doesn't always need to be a full-on perp. Sometimes accidents happen because of momentary lapses .Perhaps I'm soft, but it doesn't seem enough to condemn someone to a life of torment for.  I don't imagine her dreams will be very pleasant for a long time though..

Surely a “momentary lapse” translates to careless driving. She has killed somebody by not paying attention.

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1 minute ago, JTaylor91 said:

Surely a “momentary lapse” translates to careless driving.

Can't argue with that. But I feel sorry for everyone involved, including the driver whose easily made error means she now has someone's life on her conscience. Unless it's the US State Department there are no bad guys in this story.

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16 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

But you wanted her conscience haunted 'for the rest of her life' - which seems a bit harsh. She had a lapse of concentration that pretty much everyone I know who has ever had to swap between driving on the right and left has also experienced at one time or another. By good luck, we haven't done harm; by extreme bad luck, she did. But a second or two earlier or later and the accident quite possibly wouldn't have occurred and this thread wouldn't exist. And as I pointed out up the thread, it's very unlikely that the decision to leave the country was hers, or even that she had any say in it.

Because there's  a victim, there doesn't always need to be a full-on perp. Sometimes accidents happen because of momentary lapses .Perhaps I'm soft, but it doesn't seem enough to condemn someone to a life of torment for. :) I don't imagine her dreams will be very pleasant for a long time though..

Yes, I do want her conscience to be haunted for the rest of her life. I’ve no doubt the raw realities and anxiety will subdue eventually, but 
the only consequences she will endure are those she heaps upon herself. 
As far as we know she had a momentary lapse in concentration and someone lost their life because of it. No evil intent intended whatsoever, but she has escaped the physical consequences of her actions, whatever they may have been. 
She has been spared her day in court and all that that entails; it’s almost like she didn’t exist. 
I’ve no doubt ( if she is a half decent human being ) she will be haunted by the fact she has escaped any other consequences, and rightly so. 

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Way back - an officer in my squadron in Germany returned to the UK in his car by ferry - at Dover he went into a petrol station and then exited it onto the wrong side of the road straight into a lorry -  he looked left when he should have looked right. He survived but spent quite a bit of time in hospital.

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37 minutes ago, ditchman said:

STOP PRESS

it has just been reported "that she had not been registered as as having CD rights"...........Quote unquote

so therefore she is not under diplomatic protection

Wow! That potentially chucks the cat amongst the pigeons!......for the Americans!

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Very sad to hear of this youths Killing. I feel sorry as to his family and friends loss.Nothing can return him. If the US dept of State spirited her out of the country for their own reasons I do not see her returning to face British Justice. The US State Dept would be responsible for monetary compensation . As to the victim's family. The Revenge part of Justice incarceration,Day in Court public scrutiny is most likely avoided. As a mother I am sure that she will carry her inexcusable act of negligence with her for ever.

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STOP PRESS

 i apologise to all my readers for supplying "untrue news" ..........i can only say i gleaned it from the BBC and then confirmed it via Sky..........

apparantly Trump is investigating the possibility of her revoking her diplomatic immunity.....so it looks like she does have CD rights after all

i do apologise for reporting "Fake news"

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On 08/10/2019 at 14:01, ditchman said:

STOP PRESS

it has just been reported "that she had not been registered as as having CD rights"...........Quote unquote

so therefore she is not under diplomatic protection

Too late now, she’s gone. She won’t be coming back, I’d have money on it. 

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