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marsh man

Do We Always Consider The Dogs Safety ??

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This just emphasises the importance of having a well trained dog to me. 

 

I asked about steadiness training exercises people use on FB the other day to a wildfowling group, as I thought they would have some good tips (Ted has recently been really good on the flush but ran in on the shot) ... many of them were very happy with their dog running in to shot... for me that's just dangerous and can lead to the dog getting into trouble as you lads have outlined. 

 

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Nothing wrong with a fowling dog doing what he is needed to do Lloyd --so long as he WILL COME BACK if called back.Fowling dogs are ,in my opinion, in a different world to organised shoots.They are part of a two man team so to speak with little time to stand on ceremony whilst everyone gathers round to see the prize dog sniff out a dead pheasant in deep cover.Often speed is the key to picking a goose or duck ,especially on water .But i agree with your meaning and i reckon  that a poorly trained dog is ,well,basically, a liability to itself and everyone else.My lab just now has a tendency on occasion,to run on,and  may not halt at once ,despite training that has not failed me in the past.Its my own fault though,not the dogs,i have not put in the time as i should have .I should add my previous lab i trained was a damned fine fowling dog,nice and steady.Personalities and breeding.This lab sat beside me here was bred for trials.Hes a handsome devil,quick off the mark ,very sensitive and loyal all day long .But he has a tendency to be excitable(i put this down to breeding) and develop the deaf ear.This is feel will never leave him ,thus i decide what locations are suitable for him to be with me as i do not want him misbehaving amoung seals for example.I chuckle sometimes when i read about how so many dogs are 10/10 according to their owners  ,yet when i am out i often see dogs  ,well,shall i say ,not quite as obedient as they are claimed to be.I reckon owners need to consider their dogs limitations as well , until/unless their  abilities are improved upon and thus their partnership will be better all round.

Edited by bishop

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On 08/10/2019 at 21:42, marsh man said:

That is the thing , we cannot do a health and safety assessment every time we send out our dog for a retrieve , a lot of times when the drive is over we send the dog into the wood , for most of the time the dog can be seen but a lot of the time it cant , and if they get wind of a runner we don't know where it will end up , I think we have to accept there is a risk even if we try to cut most of them out .

A couple of seasons ago one of our beaters who bring his Jack Russel dog on all of our shoots was beating through a wood , the little old dog normally go missing for a few minutes and then turn up again , on this day it went missing and well down the wood we heard a lot of barking and a few screams , when we got there the little dog have had a go with a Muntjac and came off worse with half his belly out , we stopped the drive and the dog was rushed to the vets , with J Rs they don't let a minor thing like it's belly laying in the open put it out of action  and after his whole belly was stitched up he was back in the beating line a couple of weeks later , only this time he was kept on a lead .

Watched a video of Ian Botham game shooting and his Wire haired Jack Russel was with him on the peg. Doing its job and bringing him birds. 

Seen a West Highland White on a Shottawy video enjoying the beating.  I think it's great to see people out with all manner of dogs enjoying the sport and exercise.

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10 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

This just emphasises the importance of having a well trained dog to me. 

 

I asked about steadiness training exercises people use on FB the other day to a wildfowling group, as I thought they would have some good tips (Ted has recently been really good on the flush but ran in on the shot) ... many of them were very happy with their dog running in to shot... for me that's just dangerous and can lead to the dog getting into trouble as you lads have outlined. 

 

Running in in wildfowling dogs  is frowned on, but  ALLOWING a dog to run in can give a dog a head start as an example lets  say a fast flowing river .

  Running in like this still has to be under control, as in you have to be able to stop the dog any time you want, and certainly calling any wildfowling dog off a retrieve at any point is essential in my view.

  As dogs get experience they only go when they know they need to, as long as you maintain control by checking them on random retrieves when it suits you, ALLOWING them to act by themselves with reservation can in fact help.

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6 hours ago, MARSH GUN said:

Running in in wildfowling dogs  is frowned on, but  ALLOWING a dog to run in can give a dog a head start as an example lets  say a fast flowing river .

  Running in like this still has to be under control, as in you have to be able to stop the dog any time you want, and certainly calling any wildfowling dog off a retrieve at any point is essential in my view.

  As dogs get experience they only go when they know they need to, as long as you maintain control by checking them on random retrieves when it suits you, ALLOWING them to act by themselves with reservation can in fact help.

"Running in" to me, means a dog has gone after a retrieve without being sent. This is, to me, completely undesirable under any circumstances. If a dog is required to retrieve at once, it can be sent immediately.

I hate it when my dog runs in.

Edited by motty

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I appreciate that this thread is mostly about wildfowling.

Running in shows inadequate and incomplete training. It cannot be good for a dog to be allowed to get away with it.

There are several contributors to this forum and the internet who allow their dogs to run in. I turn the videos off as soon as I see this.

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Do not let us be classing allowing a dog to run when you want it to , and being able to call it off reliably at any point,   with a dog that is not steady to shot.

 Unsteady to shot and a dog running in with any  and every shot fired is unacceptable .

 

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Seals are the biggest fear I have working the dogs on the shore.

The stretch of west coast I shoot is full of rocky inlets and tide pools and they can appear anywhere in the deeper ones.

I forgoe shooting the big pools as I have seen seals swim past me under water with just there nostrils coming up. Huge big things just a few feet away . They seem fascinated by the dogs . 

I tend to focus on the smaller shallower pools where you rarely see them. It might mean I get less shooting but my dogs mean too much to me.

A mate reckons the noise of a shot will scare them off but I am not convinced. 

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2 hours ago, greenshank1 said:

Seals are the biggest fear I have working the dogs on the shore.

The stretch of west coast I shoot is full of rocky inlets and tide pools and they can appear anywhere in the deeper ones.

I forgoe shooting the big pools as I have seen seals swim past me under water with just there nostrils coming up. Huge big things just a few feet away . They seem fascinated by the dogs . 

I tend to focus on the smaller shallower pools where you rarely see them. It might mean I get less shooting but my dogs mean too much to me.

A mate reckons the noise of a shot will scare them off but I am not convinced. 

Seals would be my biggest fear if we had any that is , just down the coast at Horsey there are 100s ,yet if we see one come up the river it would be a talking point and something we don't see every day .

I dare say like most animals you get the majority that are o k and then the odd one that have got a mean streak and want to fight everything that come close , and I don't think a dog in the water would be a match for a Seal who is having a bad day .

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Some coincidence but I had a similar experience to the opening post yesterday. My HWV is not the best or most experienced water dog but will retrieve to a moderate distance. Yesterday I had two greylags down on the estuary, looking back these were his first water goose retrieves. Anyway all went well with first bird, second one had drifted to 50 yards and he got to this one but got a wing over his face, for  a few long minutes he just corkscrewed , drifting very slowly further out. Mild concern turned to mild panic, my mate came up and sent his dog but it would not steal the goose from mine and returned. I was taking my jacket off becoming convinced he was caught up and getting myself ready for a dunking but my pal said he would try to wade out first. He went far enough to find the leak in his chesties then my dog must have got his bearings and started to power in the second greylag. All ended well but I do wonder what would have happened if there had been any form of tide running.

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57 minutes ago, scolopax said:

Some coincidence but I had a similar experience to the opening post yesterday. My HWV is not the best or most experienced water dog but will retrieve to a moderate distance. Yesterday I had two greylags down on the estuary, looking back these were his first water goose retrieves. Anyway all went well with first bird, second one had drifted to 50 yards and he got to this one but got a wing over his face, for  a few long minutes he just corkscrewed , drifting very slowly further out. Mild concern turned to mild panic, my mate came up and sent his dog but it would not steal the goose from mine and returned. I was taking my jacket off becoming convinced he was caught up and getting myself ready for a dunking but my pal said he would try to wade out first. He went far enough to find the leak in his chesties then my dog must have got his bearings and started to power in the second greylag. All ended well but I do wonder what would have happened if there had been any form of tide running.

These things happen and I am glad all ended well , things could have been different if it was last thing at night and with the light fading , we take our dogs with the intention of them retrieving whatever we shoot both dead and alive , if I was shooting on the river wall in bad light and I knocked at goose down , do I send my dog , or worry what could happen if it all went wrong , in my case I would send it without giving it to much thought , the only time I would think twice would be if the goose went into a long glide and not knowing if it dropped or not .

We have heard one or two posts where the op say about calling your dog off a retrieve at any stage , well I am sorry to say it would be down to my poor training that if my dog was hot on the heels  of whatever he was sent for I would have a job to stop him , take today , we were on a Partridge shoot and after I drop all the beaters off I go and stand behind a couple of guns who don't have any dogs , half way through a very good drive a Partridge was wing tipped and was running between me and the Captain across the stubble , mine was on the lead to be on the safe side and he called me to send my dog before the Partridge made for thick cover beside a minor road , my dog was watching it and as soon as I took the lead off he was off in third gear and when the Partridge spotted my dog he also increased his speed , now my dog was in top gear and grabbed the bird just before it got to the cover , the only thing on my dogs mind was getting that bird and that is what he did , so hands up if your dog could have been called off just before he or she was about to grab it , for those with your hands up , well done with your training and I only wish mine was as good , and with those who have got there hands still done , you need to go back to basics , you I mean and not your dog who done well to get it :good:

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20 hours ago, marsh man said:

These things happen and I am glad all ended well , things could have been different if it was last thing at night and with the light fading , we take our dogs with the intention of them retrieving whatever we shoot both dead and alive , if I was shooting on the river wall in bad light and I knocked at goose down , do I send my dog , or worry what could happen if it all went wrong , in my case I would send it without giving it to much thought , the only time I would think twice would be if the goose went into a long glide and not knowing if it dropped or not .

We have heard one or two posts where the op say about calling your dog off a retrieve at any stage , well I am sorry to say it would be down to my poor training that if my dog was hot on the heels  of whatever he was sent for I would have a job to stop him , take today , we were on a Partridge shoot and after I drop all the beaters off I go and stand behind a couple of guns who don't have any dogs , half way through a very good drive a Partridge was wing tipped and was running between me and the Captain across the stubble , mine was on the lead to be on the safe side and he called me to send my dog before the Partridge made for thick cover beside a minor road , my dog was watching it and as soon as I took the lead off he was off in third gear and when the Partridge spotted my dog he also increased his speed , now my dog was in top gear and grabbed the bird just before it got to the cover , the only thing on my dogs mind was getting that bird and that is what he did , so hands up if your dog could have been called off just before he or she was about to grab it , for those with your hands up , well done with your training and I only wish mine was as good , and with those who have got there hands still done , you need to go back to basics , you I mean and not your dog who done well to get it :good:

Calling them off at any point is essential, start on land retrieves and progress to blind and water retrieves, important to get it into the dogs head the retrieve is yours not his and you decide if he is allowed to complete that retrieve at any time in the proceedings.

 I heard tell of a springer lost at Hawkins point on the Humber  in the early 1970s down to not being able to call it off. went out never to return. The thoughts of this scared me enough to instil control on retrieves, allowing a run in i will acept to help save a bit of time, but calling off a retrieve in my view its a must right from the off.

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