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Mentor Query


dm800
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Hope to get FAC in the not too distant future as I think the interview went well. One question I asked FEO on day and still awaiting reply:

" If my open ticket mentor and I ( closed ticket ) are shooting on land that we both have written permission on and my mentor determines that said land is suitable for FAC, am I allowed to use FAC at the same time as I am under his guidance.?"...Anyone come across this?

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2 minutes ago, scarecrow243 said:

you cant use your rifles  you can use his as long as he is beside you always  and he has the shooting rights and land owners permission to take people shooting  ps get yer flack jacket on as you will most likely need it with some of the replies you get hahahaha

This.
Your firearms will be conditioned for a specific use, and on specific land, cleared by the police.

When its open its a different matter.

Edited by Rewulf
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As Rewulf says on land which you have permission and which have been cleared by police for that calibre and I cannot see where there is a problem with someone inviting you to shoot on his piece of ground which has been cleared in the same way, what is the difference. They have agreed you are a fit and proper person to hold an FAC   What happens if you are just purchasing days stalking and have written booking notification for such ?   This pathetic mentor deal is ridiculous anyway in my view. We have had years and years of licensed people using rifles in this country with very little problem and very few incidents,  this is another restriction the authorities have devised to try and make it so difficult the applicant gives in.  

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4 minutes ago, dm800 said:

We both have permission to shoot.So I can use his unfamiliar rifle with his permission/supervision but not my own familiar rifle.....

Yes but only if he has the landowners written consent to do so. Why have the agro just get the land cleared. 

After a while, for many, it ceases to become an issue as to who actually pulls the trigger. 

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okay maybe i misread what you are saying   the land you have applied for an f.a.c. on is the same land your friend has permission on if this is the case you would be able to both be out ie  after roe  in different area from each other or double high seat etc is this what you are asking if it is then yes you would be ok

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3 hours ago, dm800 said:

and my mentor determines that said land is suitable for FAC specific calibre

If the land was cleared,and permission obtained , for YOU to use YOUR specific gun on, then your mentor wouldnt NEED to determine the land was suitable , would he ?

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2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

If the land was cleared,and permission obtained , for YOU to use YOUR specific gun on, then your mentor wouldnt NEED to determine the land was suitable , would he ?

No in the scenario, the land is not cleared but he is on an open ticket and I am on a closed ticket. Both have written  permission to shoot the land.

The whole scenario is confusing me.

Edited by dm800
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1 minute ago, dm800 said:

No in the scenario, the land is not cleared but he is on an open ticket and I am on a closed ticket. Both have written  permission to shoot the land.

As I thought, you have to use his gun, under his supervision.
Or get the land cleared (if possible) for your gun, when you get your FAC.

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If you can get the time off work easily in case they want to inspect, keep asking for new bits of land to be cleared if you have enough perms, they have very limited resources at the moment 😉

It is a crazy system as you are either a conscientious and safe shot or you are not

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16 minutes ago, 243deer said:

If you can get the time off work easily in case they want to inspect, keep asking for new bits of land to be cleared if you have enough perms, they have very limited resources at the moment 😉

It is a crazy system as you are either a conscientious and safe shot or you are not

 

5 hours ago, dm800 said:

Hope to get FAC in the not too distant future as I think the interview went well

He needs to get a ticket first, and get mentored to their satisfaction, if that is a condition of grant.

But I see what youre saying, once he does , then once he has some experience, they may open his ticket up early if he has multiple permissions that are not already cleared.

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17 hours ago, Scully said:

Or just don't ask the question and get on with getting on. 😊

Or just stay within the law and abide by the conditions of his certificate, remembering the fact that failure to do so is a summary offense punishable by a maximum penalty of 6 months imprisonment or a £5000 fine or both.

 

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3 hours ago, CharlieT said:

Or just stay within the law and abide by the conditions of his certificate, remembering the fact that failure to do so is a summary offense punishable by a maximum penalty of 6 months imprisonment or a £5000 fine or both.

 

Yes, he could do that too. Plenty of options then. 😉

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On 07/10/2019 at 16:30, Scully said:

Or just don't ask the question and get on with getting on. 😊

This ^^.

Looking at it logically the police trust your mentor's judgement about when it is suitable to shoot any calibre on his license. If you're with him then he is using his trusted judgement to allow you to shoot. As long as you're not using a calibre in excess of anything he can shoot then it seems logical you should be ok to shoot. However, I'm not saying that's the legal view, just a logical one.

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If I'm understanding the question right then I don't think you can. 

He's risk assessing the land is suitable for the use of his calibre, his gun. Following the conditions on his licence. 

For you to be able to shoot wouldn't you need the land cleared as suitable for your gun by an feo, not your mate?

Regardless of whether your using the same calibre. 

It's the conditions on the license that make the difference, we all know some conditions are ridiculous. 

I might not be understanding the question though 😂

Edited by Muddy Funker
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I would seriously be questioning the mentor condition. As it has been pointed out to me by my FEO police forces in England cannot use this condition any more, could be different in Wales/Scotland. I was not allowed a mentor, I had to instead get someone to sign their life away and declare that I had experience of using a centre fire rifle in a hunting capacity, and that they have witnessed clean kills. Also that I am able to determine safe back stop etc. This can take a few outings but at least you will have no mentor condition. 

Edited by Jason_ox
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1 hour ago, Jason_ox said:

I would seriously be questioning the mentor condition. As it has been pointed out to me by my FEO police forces in England cannot use this condition any more, could be different in Wales/Scotland. I was not allowed a mentor, I had to instead get someone to sign their life away and declare that I had experience of using a centre fire rifle in a hunting capacity, and that they have witnessed clean kills. Also that I am able to determine safe back stop etc. This can take a few outings but at least you will have no mentor condition. 

Isn’t what you have just described above, mentoring? 

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49 minutes ago, Scully said:

Isn’t what you have just described above, mentoring? 

No, with a mentor condition you have your firearms certificate issued however you can only use your rifle in the presence of the mentor. Then you will have to get the condition removed to use your rifle(s) on your own. It’s another hurdle. If you go out with your mate a few times, get some experience and when you’re both ready have your mate write a letter stating that you’re experienced, have sound knowledge of backstops, can handle a firearm safely etc This is what my police force wanted and I was granted with no condition apart from a closed cert. 

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54 minutes ago, Scully said:

Isn’t what you have just described above, mentoring? 

Well, it sounds exactly what has happened when I have mentored.

In fact, it's what I've been doing for keen people new to stalking for the past 40 years and what others did for me 60 years ago, long before the word mentor had been invented.

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26 minutes ago, Jason_ox said:

No, with a mentor condition you have your firearms certificate issued however you can only use your rifle in the presence of the mentor. Then you will have to get the condition removed to use your rifle(s) on your own. It’s another hurdle. If you go out with your mate a few times, get some experience and when you’re both ready have your mate write a letter stating that you’re experienced, have sound knowledge of backstops, can handle a firearm safely etc This is what my police force wanted and I was granted with no condition apart from a closed cert. 

Must admit I’m struggling to find the difference. 🤔

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Basically, you get a condition put on your FAC that you cannot go out shooting without mentor. 

You’ll have to get this condition lifted, have heard it could take a while to process. More than likely longer than it will take to do the below. 

versus 

Go out a few times, mate writes a letter to feo. Cert gets issued, then do as you please. 

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On 07/10/2019 at 16:00, oowee said:

Yes but only if he has the landowners written consent to do so. Why have the agro just get the land cleared. 

After a while, for many, it ceases to become an issue as to who actually pulls the trigger. 

Yet this is where the rules make no sense, open ticket = you can shoot and police don't have to look, restricted, they come out and say its only good for 223 max. Yet open ticket rocks up and feels its okay and safe to use 243 and does so. Your safe maybe different to mine or anyone else's on here too. 

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10 hours ago, Jason_ox said:

Basically, you get a condition put on your FAC that you cannot go out shooting without mentor. 

You’ll have to get this condition lifted, have heard it could take a while to process. More than likely longer than it will take to do the below. 

versus 

Go out a few times, mate writes a letter to feo. Cert gets issued, then do as you please. 

I’ve never known anyone who has had a mentoring ‘condition’ on their ticket ....now I think of it I haven’t met anyone who has been mentored either. There is some truly farcical and illogical legislation regarding firearms in the UK. 
It isn’t surprising to find much of it is ignored at times. 

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