Won't lose any sleep over this murder.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Shocking!

[Mungler]

3 hours ago, Zapp said:

Pathways into contact offending, transnational sexual exploitation, cyber sexual offending and the role of the deepweb, use of encryption,how hurtcore sites operate and self police.  There's a lot that can be gleaned from individuals like Huckle, a lot more than intercept stats can provide.  He also wrote a "how to" guide for transnational and online child sex offenders, so in terms of being someone who can inform law enforcement on what to look out for and prevent future victims people like him can be incredibly useful once caught.

This problem is, as you say, massive, and it's growing and changing all the time.

Look at how long it took to catch Matthew Falder, or the lengths international policing had to go to to break into the deepweb forum that led to the arrest of Huckle, Peter Scully and Shannon  McCoole among many others. 

A decent part of my job relates to exactly this stuff.  As repellent as individuals like this are they are sometimes the best chance law enforcement has of catching others once they themselves are apprehended.

 

The interesting bit I read was that chummy had some sort of super encryption running on various computer files, and the authorities knew them to contain the particulars of some very nasty people, and of course chummy refused to give up the passwords.

Now then, I remember watching an episode in the original and first series of "24" and the moral issue thrown out was "can it ever be right to torture someone"?

Naturally, Jack Bauer took less than a nanosecond to wrestle with that one in his conscience, then set about torturing a particularly nasty terrorist with genocidal intentions, and of course saved the day.

Can there ever be a set of circumstances where it's ok to torture someone? In theory, the idea of torturing the nonce file passwords out of chummy seems like not too bad an idea to me, in the same way I think we should have let Jack Bauer loose on Ian Bradey to find out what he did with Keith Bennett. I think the difficulty comes in drawing up a set of written rules and working out how saying "yes" affects the future and what we then commonly start saying "yes" to.

Anyways, in addition to Zapp's informed view, keeping these creatures alive may serve other purposes; I wonder in the years to come they don't create a reliable truth drug, or a means to directly interrogate someone's memory or otherwise perhaps pass a law to let Jack Bauer have a chat with them. 

 

[mel b3]

4 hours ago, Zapp said:

Pathways into contact offending, transnational sexual exploitation, cyber sexual offending and the role of the deepweb, use of encryption,how hurtcore sites operate and self police.  There's a lot that can be gleaned from individuals like Huckle, a lot more than intercept stats can provide.  He also wrote a "how to" guide for transnational and online child sex offenders, so in terms of being someone who can inform law enforcement on what to look out for and prevent future victims people like him can be incredibly useful once caught.

This problem is, as you say, massive, and it's growing and changing all the time.

Look at how long it took to catch Matthew Falder, or the lengths international policing had to go to to break into the deepweb forum that led to the arrest of Huckle, Peter Scully and Shannon  McCoole among many others. 

A decent part of my job relates to exactly this stuff.  As repellent as individuals like this are they are sometimes the best chance law enforcement has of catching others once they themselves are apprehended.

Whilst the rational side of my brain knows that you're bang on the money , the parent in me is still very glad that the nonce is dead ,and will never harm another child .

It must take a lot out of you to do your job Zapp, I'd find it very difficult to deal with that type of person. Fair play to you .

[Lord v]

1 hour ago, Mungler said:

 

The interesting bit I read was that chummy had some sort of super encryption running on various computer files, and the authorities knew them to contain the particulars of some very nasty people, and of course chummy refused to give up the passwords.

Now then, I remember watching an episode in the original and first series of "24" and the moral issue thrown out was "can it ever be right to torture someone"?

Naturally, Jack Bauer took less than a nanosecond to wrestle with that one in his conscience, then set about torturing a particularly nasty terrorist with genocidal intentions, and of course saved the day.

Can there ever be a set of circumstances where it's ok to torture someone? In theory, the idea of torturing the nonce file passwords out of chummy seems like not too bad an idea to me, in the same way I think we should have let Jack Bauer loose on Ian Bradey to find out what he did with Keith Bennett. I think the difficulty comes in drawing up a set of written rules and working out how saying "yes" affects the future and what we then commonly start saying "yes" to.

Anyways, in addition to Zapp's informed view, keeping these creatures alive may serve other purposes; I wonder in the years to come they don't create a reliable truth drug, or a means to directly interrogate someone's memory or otherwise perhaps pass a law to let Jack Bauer have a chat with them. 

 

Torture is actually notoriously rubbish at extracting (reliable) information. 

[Zapp]

1 hour ago, mel b3 said:

Whilst the rational side of my brain knows that you're bang on the money , the parent in me is still very glad that the nonce is dead ,and will never harm another child .

It must take a lot out of you to do your job Zapp, I'd find it very difficult to deal with that type of person. Fair play to you .

It' can be incredibly grim but my guys have access to excellent counselling services and we all look out for one another.  It can stay with you though.

I totally get what you're saying as a parent, I have kids too, but at the end of the day if a bit of exposure to nasty stuff and people who've done the worst things imaginable prevents a future victim or helps safeguard one now I (along with some amazing colleagues) will happily take that hit.

[jason g]

Your a better man than me I couldn't do it, I work with you people in education who have been victims to all sorts and upsets me when a disclosure is at the heart of the problem and these young people live with this daily. I agree we can learn but surely there becomes a point to call it quits. Fair play to you sir keep up the good work Zapp rather you than me

[henry d]

@Zapp & @Mungler Interesting POV's. I presume that there is much more than just the perverse driving this increase in offending and that there is a lot of money too.

If so I remember a young (American) woman who took action against those who shared or stored the images of her abuse (can't Google it as the hotel wi-fi is slow and I need my data). Could something similar be used to either coerce offenders to spill info on others or as a preventative measure?

[Zapp]

The increase in this type of offending is an interesting one.  Theories vary but an interesting factor has been the advent of live streamed abuse from abroad has been  broadly concurrent with offenders talking about a sense of detachment leading to mental distancing from the act itself.  So we see people paying for and in some cases directing the abuse of a child who will claim they aren't paedophiles because they've never physically abused a child themselves.  The internet has made such material and access to it much faster, easier and less risky.

Another change has been a blurring of the lines whereby sex tourists (especially in the far east) are much more likely to be offered access to children and there's evidence that uptake has increased also.

It is certainly be coming more and more monetized, which attracts organised crime groups.  There's already groups heavily involved in production and distribution of abuse material who are not themselves sexually motivated in the way consumers are.

I hadn't heard about the case of the victim who sued those acquiring images. Once you're on a better connection I'd appreciate a link.

[old man]

20 hours ago, ordnance said:

Few will shed any tears. But murder is murder we can not pick and choose, whoever did it should be charged with murder not given a medal. PS How do you know the killer was not in for similar offences. 

The correct assumption sir.

[Lloyd90]

2 hours ago, Zapp said:

It' can be incredibly grim but my guys have access to excellent counselling services and we all look out for one another.  It can stay with you though.

I totally get what you're saying as a parent, I have kids too, but at the end of the day if a bit of exposure to nasty stuff and people who've done the worst things imaginable prevents a future victim or helps safeguard one now I (along with some amazing colleagues) will happily take that hit.

 

Where do you work and what do you do if your allowed to say mate? 

I have worked with lots of kids who’ve been through it as well as trafficking etc.

 

Glad your out there after those that do it... keep up the top work 👍🏻.  

[Zapp]

2 minutes ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

Where do you work and what do you do if your allowed to say mate? 

I have worked with lots of kids who’ve been through it as well as trafficking etc.

 

Glad your out there after those that do it... keep up the top work 👍🏻.  

Without being too specific I run an intelligence assesments function for a govt agency.

Respect for what you do, there are some very broken folk around who need a great deal of support.

[Mungler]

3 hours ago, Lord v said:

Torture is actually notoriously rubbish at extracting (reliable) information. 

Not really. Using the worked example, if the passwords provided during questioning don’t open up the encrypted files then turn up the electricity and ask again. 

[Scully]

Sincere and genuine respect Zapp. 
I couldn’t do that work; I genuinely don’t think I’m cut out for it as I’d be constantly haunted; just hearing about child abuse makes me angry beyond belief.

Personally I’m pleased the individual came to a sticky and well deserved end; it’s a win win as far as I’m concerned as he now can’t be freed to reoffend. 

[Mungler]

It must be a very difficult job to do because you can’t unsee what you see. Going through some nonce’s hard drive and cataloguing the extreme and extensive contents and then going home to the family at 5.30 pm. That’s some heavy **** right there, well, that and having to deal with / talk to people you would happily through out of a window every day. 

[39TDS]

4 hours ago, Zapp said:

Another change has been a blurring of the lines whereby sex tourists (especially in the far east) are much more likely to be offered access to children and there's evidence that uptake has increased also.

I was in Bangkok on holiday, minding my own business in a roadside bar watching the world go by. 

I was approached by an oldish woman and assumed she was just another trying to peddle me something. I was horrified when I realised she was offering her granddaughter! The girl must only have been 12 at most. 

This was on a busy street with many other folk around, there was no secrecy involved. There were countless extremely seedy things going on but that one haunted me for some time. No doubt it’s part of “normal” life out there and much worse besides. My naivety surprised me as much as anything.

[mel b3]

Several years ago , I had a mate that was the nicest guy in the world , from the nicest family in the world, the type of guy that was a bit of a soft touch , and would bend over backwards to help absolutely anyone . He sort of went a bit quiet for a few weeks , and I asked him one day what was wrong , he told me that he'd been accused of raping his wifes 14yr old niece, obviously it wasn't true as he was such a truly nice guy , I offered all the support that I could , telling him to just hang in there , and that it will all get sorted , just give the police a bit of time , and they'll soon see that you're completely innocent, and everything will get sorted out . Anyway ,moving forward a couple of months , I was speaking to him on the phone , I can't remember exactly how the conversation went ,but it hit me like a ton of bricks that he had indeed been up to something.  That was the last time that we ever spoke a word to each other , and I left him knowing that I would be speaking to the police to let them know of my concerns.  I mithered myself to death over it for a couple of days until I eventually called his wife , little did I realise that they'd already parted company . His wife ( who was also under investigation at that time ) had been called by the police ,and they asked her to pop into the station (this was the day before his first court appearance ), they told his wife that the investigation showed that she was completely innocent of any wrong doing ,but the investigation had turned up other things that my ex friend had been up to , and they just wanted to prepare her for the things that would be coming out in court . It turned out that it was his own daughter that he had been sexually abusing ( a four year old child) , it had gone on for quite some time , and had involved other paedophiles and the dark Web, his wife told me the full story ,and it made me wretch , he'd been doing all manner of vile things to his daughter , mainly late at night while his wife was in bed . Thankfully, his daughter knows little of what went on , and will hopefully grow up without remembering much of what happened. 

Just writing this makes me feel sick to the pit of my stomach ,and more angry than I can put into words , I feel so angry with myself for not knowing, and I can't even begin to imagine how badly his now ex wife feels , or how his poor parents felt when it all came out in court. 

I've always believed that everyone deserves a second chance in life , except nonces !,following this , I would be quite happy for them to be executed on their first conviction , no matter how minor the offence may seem.

[Zapp]

1 minute ago, 39TDS said:

I was in Bangkok on holiday, minding my own business in a roadside bar watching the world go by. 

I was approached by an oldish woman and assumed she was just another trying to peddle me something. I was horrified when I realised she was offering her granddaughter! The girl must only have been 12 at most. 

This was on a busy street with many other folk around, there was no secrecy involved. There were countless extremely seedy things going on but that one haunted me for some time. No doubt it’s part of “normal” life out there and much worse besides. My naivety surprised me as much as anything.

Yikes.  I believe the proportion of western men who take such offers up whilst abroad is much higher than we believe and is probably increasing.  That direct solicitation openly takes place towards westeners speaks volumes in my opinion.

There are parts of the Philippines where the child sex trade (prostitution and online stuff for cash) is a common form of income.  In the far east more widely, child and adult prostitution operations are run in parallel.

Its dreadful.  There's so much exploitation involved in all forms of prostitution abroad including That involving adults, how anyone can take advantage and live with themselves I'll never know.

[Zapp]

24 minutes ago, mel b3 said:

Several years ago , I had a mate that was the nicest guy in the world , from the nicest family in the world, the type of guy that was a bit of a soft touch , and would bend over backwards to help absolutely anyone . He sort of went a bit quiet for a few weeks , and I asked him one day what was wrong , he told me that he'd been accused of raping his wifes 14yr old niece, obviously it wasn't true as he was such a truly nice guy , I offered all the support that I could , telling him to just hang in there , and that it will all get sorted , just give the police a bit of time , and they'll soon see that you're completely innocent, and everything will get sorted out . Anyway ,moving forward a couple of months , I was speaking to him on the phone , I can't remember exactly how the conversation went ,but it hit me like a ton of bricks that he had indeed been up to something.  That was the last time that we ever spoke a word to each other , and I left him knowing that I would be speaking to the police to let them know of my concerns.  I mithered myself to death over it for a couple of days until I eventually called his wife , little did I realise that they'd already parted company . His wife ( who was also under investigation at that time ) had been called by the police ,and they asked her to pop into the station (this was the day before his first court appearance ), they told his wife that the investigation showed that she was completely innocent of any wrong doing ,but the investigation had turned up other things that my ex friend had been up to , and they just wanted to prepare her for the things that would be coming out in court . It turned out that it was his own daughter that he had been sexually abusing ( a four year old child) , it had gone on for quite some time , and had involved other paedophiles and the dark Web, his wife told me the full story ,and it made me wretch , he'd been doing all manner of vile things to his daughter , mainly late at night while his wife was in bed . Thankfully, his daughter knows little of what went on , and will hopefully grow up without remembering much of what happened. 

Just writing this makes me feel sick to the pit of my stomach ,and more angry than I can put into words , I feel so angry with myself for not knowing, and I can't even begin to imagine how badly his now ex wife feels , or how his poor parents felt when it all came out in court. 

I've always believed that everyone deserves a second chance in life , except nonces !,following this , I would be quite happy for them to be executed on their first conviction , no matter how minor the offence may seem.

Thats really awful.  

In a lot of cases though these people simply hide in plain sight.  I've had the lovely job of reading 3 "paedophile manuals" produced by sex offenders for sex offenders and in all of them there has been a huge amount of tradecraft advice on how to offend undetected.  The level of manipulation and calculated cynicism involved really takes some grasping.

We had an individual who was on here who was sent down for his part in a very serious abuse ring.  You just don't know who is who in a lot of cases I'm afraid.

[jason g]

Scary world we live In, these paedos are getting more sly and calculated as time goes on. Perpetrators are very clever to manipulate people and should never be underestimated but what frustrates me more is when paedophiles are house opposite schools, close to parks and children with new identities and nobody's any wiser. It happens round here I know absolutely crazy 

[henry d]

11 hours ago, Zapp said:

 

There are parts of the Philippines where the child sex trade (prostitution and online stuff for cash) is a common form of income.  In the far east more widely, child and adult prostitution operations are run in parallel.

I have a fillipino friend and she says that the mindset of some is still that children are chattels and can be used in any way the parents see fit and due to the poverty there it is the only way out. She was lucky as her parents were Christian (RC) and had a different outlook if she had been in a different family it could have been a lot different for her as she is also disabled.

Gruesome world

11 hours ago, Zapp said:

 

 

[Retsdon]

21 hours ago, 39TDS said:

No doubt it’s part of “normal” life out there and much worse besides.

It's not normal at all within society at large. The problem is that, like Jimmy Savlle found to his advantage 30 years ago in the UK, normal people are too prudish or embarrassed, or even naive to talk about it. Which is all grist to the mill to the exploiters.

And the  biggest problems in Thailand is that everyone is so absolutely naive. Two examples. The first example - we live in a gated community where everyone knows everyone else. In this community is a guy who's probably in his mid-20s. He lives with his parents and quite obviously is not 100 percent the full ticket. But he hangs around the children's playground at the top the development in shorts that are basically boxer shorts, and he actively seeks out the company of young boys. I've told my kids not to speak to him at all, but whenever I say to Thai people that, you know, maybe he's not exactly wholesome, they just get embarrassed and try and change the topic. When I said to Mrs R that everyone in their 20s gets sexual urges and as this fellow quite obviously felt more at home in the company of kids than adults   -   how did she imagine these inevitable sexual urges would manifest themselves? -  it was like a revelation for her. She'd never thought of it that way.  The second example, I took the kids to the local water park - slides, tubes and such. While the kids were playing, I found myself sitting behind/next to the kind of booth thing that the staff sit in. And there's a guy who works there, with a Nikon and a telephoto lens, taking pictures of pretty much every girl between the ages of about 11 and 14. I was watching him as he was taking the shots and they didn't look like they were destined for the family album. He worked there and yet nobody else who worked there seemed to think anything about it. Or if they did, they were too embarrassed or shy to confront him with it. Or perhaps even they told themselves that he was just taking innocent pictures. It's easier that way.

The problem is - what can you do? Just tell your own kids to take care I suppose.