Rewulf Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 16 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I see the echo chamber is in full swing this morning, but anyway. So suppose the we've already asked the remain question and the answer is leave. The next question could be do you accept the Boris deal? If the answer is no, then the next question could be do you accept no deal? What if the answer to that is no too - where would we go from there? What you are promoting is a selective, almost closed, democracy not an open one which is the only really valid kind. Perhaps in which case he could have gone straight back to them once the result was no. Since you disagree with my points, do you go as far as suggesting that the structure and preparation for the referendum was without fault? I don't know what's going to happen and I think you are trying to project what you want to happen as what will happen. The best I can honestly hope for from the GE is a clear statement on where the public now stand on Brexit, I doubt that will be the outcome but we will see. I know its not definitive, but if you seriously think Labour or the libs stand a chance... There's money to be made there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 Not really my thing but if I felt the need to take a punt in the past it wouldn't have been GE outcome and certainly not now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 I think there is a very rude awakening on the way, us plebs simply don't like the establishment shafting us the way they do and are looking forwards to showing it. Revenge is a very powerful fuel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 10 minutes ago, Dave-G said: Revenge is a very powerful fuel. As per the proverb, be sure to dig two graves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 37 minutes ago, Rewulf said: I know its not definitive, but if you seriously think Labour or the libs stand a chance The problem is this For leave: Tory say 295, Brexit say 5, total 300 - no majority For remain: Labour say 250, LibDem say 40, SNP say 35, Green say 3, Change UK (or whatever they called are this week) - say 3 - total 331 - a majority for remainers and lefties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewulf Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 12 minutes ago, JohnfromUK said: The problem is this For leave: Tory say 295, Brexit say 5, total 300 - no majority For remain: Labour say 250, LibDem say 40, SNP say 35, Green say 3, Change UK (or whatever they called are this week) - say 3 - total 331 - a majority for remainers and lefties That's saying the tories won't make any gains at all, and Labour don't lose much. Do you think that scenario likely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 Just now, Rewulf said: Do you think that scenario likely? I certainly think its possible. If Farage stands against the Tories in every seat - they won't gain many and they will lose some - but Farage won't actually win many (may not even win any - UKIP never did). Labour will probably lose a few more, but LibDems will also possibly gain more. IF Farage stands in every seat - there will be no Brexit and a left of centre coalition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said: I see the echo chamber is in full swing this morning, but anyway. So suppose the we've already asked the remain question and the answer is leave. The next question could be do you accept the Boris deal? If the answer is no, then the next question could be do you accept no deal? What if the answer to that is no too - where would we go from there? What you are promoting is a selective, almost closed, democracy not an open one which is the only really valid kind. Perhaps in which case he could have gone straight back to them once the result was no. Since you disagree with my points, do you go as far as suggesting that the structure and preparation for the referendum was without fault? I don't know what's going to happen and I think you are trying to project what you want to happen as what will happen. The best I can honestly hope for from the GE is a clear statement on where the public now stand on Brexit, I doubt that will be the outcome but we will see. Look to yourself regarding an echo chamber! Or should that be empty vessel? Lol! As the EU won’t offer an acceptable deal and If there is a majority leave parliament after the GE? The UK could leave without the temporary WA.....and negotiate after, without our hands being tied, which seems a logical way to deliver a democratic way forward. You are suggesting because the EU won’t give us an acceptable WA, and because our largely remainer Parliament won’t allow us to leave without one...the UK surrenders it’s democratically reached position (which in case you have forgotten, is to leave the EU!) and just allow the EU and remainers to keep us in the EU? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Look to yourself regarding an echo chamber! Or should that be empty vessel? Lol! Thank-you for beautifully highlight MY point. 5 minutes ago, panoma1 said: You are suggesting because the EU won’t give us an acceptable WA, and because our largely remainer Parliament won’t allow us to leave without one...the UK surrenders it’s democratically reached position (which in case you have forgotten, is to leave the EU!) and just allow the EU and remainers to keep us in the EU? Keep banging the same old drum and playing the only card you have 😛 (we heard you the nth millionth time) - echo chamber again... 7 minutes ago, panoma1 said: The UK could leave without the temporary WA.....and negotiate after, without our hands being tied, which seems a logical way to deliver a democratic way forward. I'm sure you realise that's no deal in the context of my question which you failed to answer by the way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 The key to this election is Farage, he is the king maker. If he fields candidates against the Conservatives in their heartlands he will split the leave vote and scupper Boris and Brexit. If he only fields candidates against Labour, Lib Dems and SNP safe seats he can sap their vote. He can't win the election for himself but he holds most of Boris's cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 2 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Thank-you for beautifully highlight MY point. Keep banging the same old drum and playing the only card you have 😛 (we heard you the nth millionth time) - echo chamber again... I'm sure you realise that's no deal in the context of my question which you failed to answer by the way. The only card to play is the right card, not the corruption of a hand you are constantly trying to deal! It is what it was!......The question was leave or remain?.....Leave won!.....that’s the right card! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 1 hour ago, panoma1 said: The only card to play is the right card, not the corruption of a hand you are constantly trying to deal! It is what it was!......The question was leave or remain?.....Leave won!.....that’s the right card! Or, it is what it is, and leave hasn't won yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 5 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Or, it is what it is, and leave hasn't won yet. Yes leave did win! The fact is the remainers in Parliament are preventing democracy being served and the democratic will of the people being delivered! Whatever happens next in Westminster, nothing will change the fact that leave won!....that is why your arguments and protestations are irrelevant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 11 minutes ago, panoma1 said: Yes leave did win! The fact is the remainers in Parliament are preventing democracy being served and the democratic will of the people being delivered! Yes, I think you might have mentioned this before 🙂 Whatever happens next in Westminster, nothing will change the fact that leave won!....that is why your arguments and protestations are irrelevant! Nobody is denying that. Relevant enough arguments and protestations for you to constantly reply with the same old same old. It's starting to look a lot like the leavers are going to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, but hey, as long as leave won... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 10 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: Relevant enough arguments and protestations for you to constantly reply with the same old same old. It's starting to look a lot like the leavers are going to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, but hey, as long as leave won... No matter how many times you protest, argue against, try to deny and attempt to deflect from the fact that the UK voted to leave the EU, it will remain a fact!......And as such, I will keep on repeating it! 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpringDon Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 1 hour ago, Raja Clavata said: Relevant enough arguments and protestations for you to constantly reply with the same old same old. It's starting to look a lot like the leavers are going to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, but hey, as long as leave won... I wonder if that’s the nub of the problem; there is no winning, victory or defeat. For (I fondly imagine) most normal people life just goes on. When the new (or not) legislative environment is revealed, people will adjust and carry on. Either way, it is not the end of all things, it will just be a bit different. The trouble with the view from the extreme is that everything is “other” because you are not immersed in it. Constantly slinging bile at the “other side” whether they are benefit recipients, self employed or brexiteers is not normal or helpful. The distorted face of hate is the same irrespective of the direction from which it spews its vitriol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 2 hours ago, panoma1 said: No matter how many times you protest, argue against, try to deny and attempt to deflect from the fact that the UK voted to leave the EU, it will remain a fact!......And as such, I will keep on repeating it! 👍 I know, I know, as is your democratic right, we get it 😛 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave-G Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 2 hours ago, Raja Clavata said: Relevant enough arguments and protestations for you to constantly reply with the same old same old. It's starting to look a lot like the leavers are going to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, but hey, as long as leave won... Lol, people can keep dressing up remain in different clothes but its still the same person underneath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 1 hour ago, SpringDon said: I wonder if that’s the nub of the problem; there is no winning, victory or defeat. For (I fondly imagine) most normal people life just goes on. When the new (or not) legislative environment is revealed, people will adjust and carry on. Either way, it is not the end of all things, it will just be a bit different. The trouble with the view from the extreme is that everything is “other” because you are not immersed in it. Constantly slinging bile at the “other side” whether they are benefit recipients, self employed or brexiteers is not normal or helpful. The distorted face of hate is the same irrespective of the direction from which it spews its vitriol. The thing is though, I don't think anyone posting here with a Brexit Remain bias is particularly extreme, even if it sometimes comes across that way, perhaps. Regarding the points about people on benefits who use the system, the counter point was made about self employed people (and by implication larger firms and corporations) who do not contribute their fair share to society either. It was raised as a contrasting view / balancing and not targeted directly at anyone in particular. Hate is a strong word, from a personal perspective I have the utmost respect for people like Rewulf and John who have shared views constructively and engaged in debate - I would happily break bread with them and / or buy them a pint or two. Unfortunately the slinging of bile has become somewhat normalised by both the media, politicians and people on internet forums who, through personal experiences in their home and professional lives, don't really know how to engage in debate, logic and rhetoric without making it personal. 6 minutes ago, Dave-G said: Lol, people can keep dressing up remain in different clothes but its still the same person underneath. Careful, soon you might be suggesting anyone not in favour of no deal is a remainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panoma1 Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 24 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said: I know, I know, as is your democratic right, we get it 😛 Is that like the royal we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Prawn Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 5 hours ago, JohnfromUK said: The problem is this For leave: Tory say 295, Brexit say 5, total 300 - no majority For remain: Labour say 250, LibDem say 40, SNP say 35, Green say 3, Change UK (or whatever they called are this week) - say 3 - total 331 - a majority for remainers and lefties Of course in the event of your second hypothetical scenario coming true, a coalition of that many parties would never get anything done at all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnfromUK Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 4 minutes ago, The Mighty Prawn said: a coalition of that many parties would never get anything done at all A good excuse for then not getting Brexit done. The SNP and Labour are actually quite aligned on the hard left Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Dave-G said: I think there is a very rude awakening on the way, us plebs simply don't like the establishment shafting us the way they do and are looking forwards to showing it. Revenge is a very powerful fuel. 100% again Dave. Of all the people I speak with in our towns and villages on shoot days etc., about 2 in 10 say they will vote other than Brexit. Could be a lot of folks telling lies, I don't know. Edited November 4, 2019 by Walker570 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walker570 Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 We have one serious flaw in the whole deal and his name is Cummings. He hates Nigel Farage for some reason and no doubt is preventing Boris doing a Brexit/Tory deal which would be the end of Labour and the Liberals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Retsdon Posted November 4, 2019 Report Share Posted November 4, 2019 I imagine that there are quite a number of people throughout the country who believe that Boris's "get Brexit done" signals the end of the matter and are voting accordingly. They are in for a nasty surprise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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