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8 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

I have personal experience of this, as I live in a county where a GPs report is mandatory. This lead to me having to change Medical Practices as my previous GP had a practice policy of not responding to Police requests for info and would not produce the required letter. Prior to starting the renewal process I spoke to BASC by email and also at some length at the Game Fair. While I was advised of the lobbying being undertaken behind the scenes over the medical report requirement, they admitted that I was trapped between a rock and a hard place and there was little they could do if I wanted to retain my licence. Not what I wanted to hear, but I accept the limitations they have over this. Chief Constables have played the Public Safety card over the requirement for a GPs report, and the Home Office and our ineffective politicians are not going to over rule the Police on this. Challenge the Chief Constable over this or his buddy the Crime Commisioner and you will get the Public Safety requirement thrown at you.

Having changed GPs and started the renewal process, I had my FEO visit last week. In casual conversation he advised me that he expected to see the mandatory requirement for a GPs report to be the norm with all county forces over the next 12 months. He also advised that there is discussion between the Home Office and the various medical bodies concerning the agreement over the max fee`s that GPs are permitted to charge. The Home Office has apparently already agreed that any charges raised by the GP for providing the medical report are to be paid for by the applicant.

Make no bones about it guys, this requirement is here to stay and will apply to you all in the not to distant future !

Slagging off BASC is not going to change anything, you are better off spending your time making sure you GP will produce the necessary when required.

Far better to save your membership money and put it toward the cost of the Doctors letter!

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13 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

I have personal experience of this, as I live in a county where a GPs report is mandatory. This lead to me having to change Medical Practices as my previous GP had a practice policy of not responding to Police requests for info and would not produce the required letter. Prior to starting the renewal process I spoke to BASC by email and also at some length at the Game Fair. While I was advised of the lobbying being undertaken behind the scenes over the medical report requirement, they admitted that I was trapped between a rock and a hard place and there was little they could do if I wanted to retain my licence. Not what I wanted to hear, but I accept the limitations they have over this. Chief Constables have played the Public Safety card over the requirement for a GPs report, and the Home Office and our ineffective politicians are not going to over rule the Police on this. Challenge the Chief Constable over this or his buddy the Crime Commisioner and you will get the Public Safety requirement thrown at you.

Having changed GPs and started the renewal process, I had my FEO visit last week. In casual conversation he advised me that he expected to see the mandatory requirement for a GPs report to be the norm with all county forces over the next 12 months. He also advised that there is discussion between the Home Office and the various medical bodies concerning the agreement over the max fee`s that GPs are permitted to charge. The Home Office has apparently already agreed that any charges raised by the GP for providing the medical report are to be paid for by the applicant.

Make no bones about it guys, this requirement is here to stay and will apply to you all in the not to distant future !

Slagging off BASC is not going to change anything, you are better off spending your time making sure you GP will produce the necessary when required.

I think you are correct, we so far have 14 constabulary in England and 1 in Wales, don’t think it will be long before they all apply the same rules.

Not really BASC bashing but it does make you think why this was not picked up earlier and challenged more strongly, even to the point of fighting it in the courts.

Must admit we do seem to be coming under a lot of pressure from every angle.
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11 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

I have personal experience of this, as I live in a county where a GPs report is mandatory. This lead to me having to change Medical Practices as my previous GP had a practice policy of not responding to Police requests for info and would not produce the required letter. Prior to starting the renewal process I spoke to BASC by email and also at some length at the Game Fair. While I was advised of the lobbying being undertaken behind the scenes over the medical report requirement, they admitted that I was trapped between a rock and a hard place and there was little they could do if I wanted to retain my licence. Not what I wanted to hear, but I accept the limitations they have over this. Chief Constables have played the Public Safety card over the requirement for a GPs report, and the Home Office and our ineffective politicians are not going to over rule the Police on this. Challenge the Chief Constable over this or his buddy the Crime Commisioner and you will get the Public Safety requirement thrown at you.

Having changed GPs and started the renewal process, I had my FEO visit last week. In casual conversation he advised me that he expected to see the mandatory requirement for a GPs report to be the norm with all county forces over the next 12 months. He also advised that there is discussion between the Home Office and the various medical bodies concerning the agreement over the max fee`s that GPs are permitted to charge. The Home Office has apparently already agreed that any charges raised by the GP for providing the medical report are to be paid for by the applicant.

Make no bones about it guys, this requirement is here to stay and will apply to you all in the not to distant future !

Slagging off BASC is not going to change anything, you are better off spending your time making sure you GP will produce the necessary when required.

So if we all accept that there is nothing that basc or any of the others can do to protect the sport what is the point of them. As any new demands made by police will always be under the guise of public safety. The magazine goes from letter box to bin. I am not interested in game fair. (same old same old) the insurance can be had cheaper elsewhere. It seems we are just on countdown to no sporting shooting in this country. 

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8 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

So if we all accept that there is nothing that basc or any of the others can do to protect the sport what is the point of them. As any new demands made by police will always be under the guise of public safety. The magazine goes from letter box to bin. I am not interested in game fair. (same old same old) the insurance can be had cheaper elsewhere. It seems we are just on countdown to no sporting shooting in this country. 

Should I sell my guns now while they are still worth something. :hmm::)

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21 minutes ago, old'un said:

Must admit we do seem to be coming under a lot of pressure from every angle

No one, me included, likes to have to fork out money for a letter to support my renewal application.

However, playing devils advocate; if we ignore the monetary cost to the applicant for the moment, do we object to the Police seeking some assurance on medical grounds that the applicant does not suffer from certain medical conditions ?

I in the past have met both FAC and SGC certificate holders who by the actions or `habits` have given me cause for concern at the time. Is the Police request for these letters totally wrong ?

Edited by JJsDad
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24 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Far better to save your membership money and put it toward the cost of the Doctors letter!

Yup. Honestly, don't bother wasting money on the marketing company that is BASC. Just arrange your own insurance (lots of options, all of them a lot cheaper) and put the wasted money on the voice of shooting toward your renewals fees. That is unless you are particularly inclined toward green branded brollies of questionable quality (and which you'd have to pay for anyway)?

 

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I’m with Bostonmick on this we pay are membership to BASC on the assumption they are their to fight for shooting however and whenever necessary and were we not taught that it is better to have tried and failed then never tried at all

basc have simply not been pro active or assertive with this by not opting for a judicial review they have sent a message to the police and home office that we will continue to simply roll over and take what ever they throw at us as we have always done.

And once they start suggesting the GPs are not monitoring the medical health of certificate holder we could soon see an annual medical. And if I was a GP I would think nice little earner, thank you very much.

5 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

No one, me included, likes to have to fork out money for a letter to support my renewal application.

However, playing devils advocate; if we ignore the monetary cost to the applicant, do we object to the Police seeking some assurance on medical grounds that the applicant does not suffer from certain medical conditions ?

I in the past have met both FAC and SGC certificate holders who by the actions or `habits` have given me cause for concern at the time. Is the Police request for these letters totally wrong ?

No it is not totally wrong, but the process should be fair and fit for purpose and it is not, it is a postcode lotto.

 

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24 minutes ago, old'un said:

Not really BASC bashing but it does make you think why this was not picked up earlier and challenged more strongly, even to the point of fighting it in the courts.

Having spoken to BASC at some length, I would suggest that any legal challenge against the requirement for a medical report will fall at the first hurdle as soon as the Home Office barrister plays the Public Safety card. No medical report will allow the odd applicant to slip through the Police checks who really shouldnt be allowed a weapon of any sort. A number of cases over the years have demonstrated the tragic consequences.

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10 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

No one, me included, likes to have to fork out money for a letter to support my renewal application.

However, playing devils advocate; if we ignore the monetary cost to the applicant for the moment, do we object to the Police seeking some assurance on medical grounds that the applicant does not suffer from certain medical conditions ?

No, none what so ever if we are talking about people with possible mental health problems.

I in the past have met both FAC and SGC certificate holders who by the actions or `habits` have given me cause for concern at the time. Is the Police request for these letters totally wrong ? I also have seen some pretty bad habits by FAC and SGC holders but this is not a mental health issue.

As I said we do seem to-be coming under a lot of pressure from all angles, don’t think the issue with the police and doctors letters will bring shooting down, it may possibly weaken it through people giving shooting up because of it, I think the downfall of shooting will be through social media, lets face it we cannot even hold food events without it being attacked on social media…https://0ld.basc.org.uk/?wysija-page=1&controller=email&action=view&email_id=1069&wysijap=subscriptions&user_id=177817

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4 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

Having spoken to BASC at some length, I would suggest that any legal challenge against the requirement for a medical report will fall at the first hurdle as soon as the Home Office barrister plays the Public Safety card. No medical report will allow the odd applicant to slip through the Police checks who really shouldnt be allowed a weapon of any sort. A number of cases over the years have demonstrated the tragic consequences.

 To simplistic, the police have always been able to check your medical history if they felt the need.

we allow new applications for driving licences to be issued in a similar way but they are not calling for a mandatory medical for driving licences due to public safety are they? 

Edited by rbrowning2
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12 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

No one, me included, likes to have to fork out money for a letter to support my renewal application.

However, playing devils advocate; if we ignore the monetary cost to the applicant for the moment, do we object to the Police seeking some assurance on medical grounds that the applicant does not suffer from certain medical conditions ?

I in the past have met both FAC and SGC certificate holders who by the actions or `habits` have given me cause for concern at the time. Is the Police request for these letters totally wrong ?

The facility for police to gain information has always been there. Any GP whether anti or not would no doubt reply to normal requests if they believed a patient of theirs to be unfit due to duty of care. I would like to know how many people were granted when they had mental illness because the GP never replied. 

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3 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

That, according to my FEO is currently being addressed.

Well let’s hope so but it will be interesting to see how unless they make it part of the GPs NHS contract and I bet the BMA will not want that. Even any new process as part of the statutory guidance review that has just completed will not be law as that would require primary legislation via parliament and that is very unlikely given the mess parliament is in. So the police will just cherry pick the new guidance and do as they please just like now.

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2 minutes ago, bostonmick said:

I would like to know how many people were granted when they had mental illness because the GP never replied. 

Well, to the best of my recollection, the guys involved in the Hungerford and Dunblane incidents were both licenced. In one case the Chief Constable over-rode the advice of the FEO and renewed the guys ticket when the FEO expressed concerns . But as expected, that was kept very low key at the time.

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Hope this is the correct link, if so you should be able to down load a database

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/statistics-on-firearm-and-shotgun-certificates-england-and-wales-april-2018-to-march-2019

For forces that have been running with the mandatory medical record for virtually all of the last year it so far shows no significant difference in certificates revoked or refused on previous years, unfortunately it does not give the reason why the  certificate was revoked or refused.

for example Kent last statistical year are running at half the national average for certificates revoked or refused to be granted and is on average lower than it has been for the previous five years.

so where is the evidence that the mandatory medical is resulting in finding lots of liars, because that is what the police think we all are otherwise they would believe what medical information you declare on the application form just like the DVLA do.

 

Edited by rbrowning2
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4 minutes ago, oowee said:

Does anyone know if you can simply send a copy of your medical notes rather than provide a letter?

Can`t speak for your County Force, but down here in Kent the answer to your question is "No". A print out of your medical history is not acceptable

The Firearms Dept are not trained or competent to examine and understand the applicants medical notes. A letter (report) in the format laid down on their website has to be completed by the GP and sent direct. The applicant does not see or have access to the letter for obvious reasons. Check your county force fireams website as the format of what the Police want from the GP may vary slightly across various counties.

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14 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

Well, to the best of my recollection, the guys involved in the Hungerford and Dunblane incidents were both licenced. In one case the Chief Constable over-rode the advice of the FEO and renewed the guys ticket when the FEO expressed concerns . But as expected, that was kept very low key at the time.

Well, taken from above, if that was the case then what is the point of a doctors letter if its going to-be ignored by the chief constable? If I remember I think there were also concerns at one of the clubs attended by one of them, some members even contacted the police about their concerns.

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37 minutes ago, old'un said:

Somehow I cannot see the police excepting this, what’s to stop someone doctoring their report? (see what I did there)

You still get the opportunity to alter the report if you understand the failings in the current process.

you go to your registered GP ask for a GDPR medical record printout (or print it out yourself if you have requested online access to your medical records), you tell the FEO your own GP will not engage in the process he will tell you to use an alternative GP.  You then edit how you like the printout on your PC take it to the alternative GP who has never met you and he then uses the printout to reply to the police. You pay him his not insignificant fee thank him and tell him you will see him in five years.

with the exception of editing the printout and that the persons own GP refused to do the report, this is exactly how it was done by one person in Kent. It was also the bases for a formal complaint made by a friend against the Kent Chief Constable which failed because they said the alternative GP had access to a national patients database and could verify the printout. Which is absolute rubbish but their is no way to appeal the complaint findings.

Their is no national medical records database, except for the dead, The alternative GP has no access to your limited history online summary care records without your consent, so a lot are using the GDPR printout, one GP has a nice little earner like this in Kent.

mad or what?

 

 

28 minutes ago, JJsDad said:

Can`t speak for your County Force, but down here in Kent the answer to your question is "No". A print out of your medical history is not acceptable

The Firearms Dept are not trained or competent to examine and understand the applicants medical notes. A letter (report) in the format laid down on their website has to be completed by the GP and sent direct. The applicant does not see or have access to the letter for obvious reasons. Check your county force fireams website as the format of what the Police want from the GP may vary slightly across various counties.

This is only true if your registered GP engages in the process and a lot are not it falls apart when you need to use an alternative GP.

 

Edited by rbrowning2
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1 minute ago, old'un said:

what is the point of a doctors letter if its going to-be ignored by the chief constable

Well, one things for sure. After those two incidents, no Chief Constable will now over rule his FEO or ignore detrimental advice from a GP.  Its a career ending decision if you ignore either and it results in one death, let alone several. Albeit it didnt hamper Cresida **** when under her watch a firearms team shot a totally innocent guy on the underground. Mistaken identity was the Police cry and I dont think anyone carried the can. Few red faces and pay his parents off and all quickly swept under the mat.

If I had pulled a stunt like that while serving in NI, I would have been banged up for life with loss of pay & pension.

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5 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Not sure what power the police actually have to formally gain access to your medical records, court order may be?

you give them your consent on the application form to contact your GP if they do then they have to pay not you, which was the case with HOG2016.

i guess a GP is more likely to respond to an informal request for information from the police. Any such informal request from the police or applicant is outside the GP nhs contract and hence private work chargeable as the GP considers appropriate.

Hence the mess we are in.

 

Way i understood if you gave the police permision to seek info on your records as in the renewal/ grant forms. If however  doctor did not get back to them in three weeks police were to take it as nothing was amiss they need be concerned about . job done.

Now because certain forces did not act appropriately in the cases or ryan hamilton Atherton ETC , when their own staff had all the power they needed to act on these people but chose not to take any action, and with the terrible results. They got all they need now they just need to use what they got not sit on it . 

 

Edited by lancer425
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1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

You go to your registered GP ask for a GDPR medical record printout (or print it out yourself if you have requested online access to your medical records), you tell the FEO your own GP will not engage in the process he will tell you to use an alternative GP.  You then edit how you like the printout on your PC take it to the alternative GP who has never met you and he then uses the printout to reply to the police. You pay him his not insignificant fee thank him and tell him you will see him in five years.

with the exception of editing the printout and that the persons own GP refused to do the report, this is exactly how it was done by one person in Kent. It was also the bases for a formal complaint made by a friend against the Kent Chief Constable which failed because they said the alternative GP had access to a national patients database and could verify the printout. Which is absolute rubbish but their is no way to appeal the complaint findings.

Their is no national medical records database, except for the dead, The alternative GP has no access to your limited history online summary care records without your consent, so a lot are using the GDPR printout, one GP has a nice little earner like this in Kent.

I am no legal expert, but your explanation above seems to be guidance on how to commit a criminal offence !

I would have thought anyone trying to pull this stunt has got something rather worrying to hide, and if caught, leaves himself open to criminal prosecution with the certain loss of his licence and a fine or time behind bars.

In the light this is a totally public forum where anyone, including the Police can come and have a browse, I find your comments, in particular identifying the Police Force, somewhat naive to say the least.

Edited by JJsDad
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