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DUNKS

browning 525 firing pin

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Hi. Seen lots on this but does anyone positively know why the bottom pin is prone to failure through corrosion? Why never the top one?

My 525 is ten years old and both pins seem to be perfect.

Edited by DUNKS

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Seem to recall that the bottom pin has no "return" spring behind it so the cartridge base drags against it slightly as the gun is opened - maybe this causes a bit of damage over time?

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I thought it was due to the angle the pin is set at,it rubs on the cap as it fires. Newer models don't suffer from this. 

Edited by figgy

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1 minute ago, figgy said:

I thought it was due to the angle the pin is set at,it rubs on the cap as it fires. Newer models don't suffer from this. 

How new is newer? Mine is 2015 I think.

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God your should be fine. It wasn't just corrosion and wear but misfires on harder primers too.

When you look at the fired carts the indent was over to one side and angled.

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It due to the geometry in the action and the angle of the striker that’s not been rectified in the modern guns.  It’s not corrosion but striker pitting. 

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Thanks everyone. On my 525 the bottom striker is sprung. The top one has no spring.

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1 hour ago, Wingman said:

What’s a Beretta 525??

Of course you all knew I meant browning. I grow old!!!

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I bought a brand new Ultra xs in February this year and the bottom firing pin is pitted already. 

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I hear there are better strikers than the standard Browning ones! Anyone know who makes them please.

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1 hour ago, DUNKS said:

Of course you all knew I meant browning. I grow old!!!

Don't tell him your name Pike!

maxresdefault1-2-1024x576.jpg

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Some good info here - https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/725-citori-firing-pin-pitted.766801/ 

My bottom pin is slightly pitted already - B525SL bought in May 2019 and has had two msifires, though the indentations were deep (may have been dodgy primers).

I took out the pins last weekend and cleaned the pins, lower spring and guide holes (bottom was filthy) and have ordered these replacements (Citori)  from the states - that are supposed to be better than the originals. https://www.jnpgunsprings.com/BROWNING-PARTS-c20975296

 

 

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Dunks your better off asking a gunsmith to make a pin. They can harden the tip to slow the putting down

I was told off a dealer that Browning had changed the angle on newer guns to stop it happening, apparently not, they just added 15 thou to the pin.

Some videos on YouTube showing how to change the pin and mainspring. Lots are just changing them as and when needed.

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25 minutes ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Don't tell him your name Pike!

maxresdefault1-2-1024x576.jpg

Thanks mate!!!

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3 hours ago, welshwarrior said:

It due to the geometry in the action and the angle of the striker that’s not been rectified in the modern guns.  It’s not corrosion but striker pitting. 

Indeed, It's been happening since 1973 and it's still a problem with the 725! With Miroku and Browning, both pins are prone to erosion from pitting although it's worse on the bottom. Americans blame what they call euro primers and claim the pins pierce them and it's the burn back that erodes the pins. My problem with that explanation is that virtually no other makes have the problem. I've seen numerous gun related fail-to-fire situations at registered shoots and 9 times out of 10 it's a light strike on a Browning or Miroku and usually the bottom barrel. I've never seen a light strike F-T-F on a Beretta, Perazzi, CG, Blaser etc.

I used to know an old gunsmith, now deceased, who could make firing pins and he could harden and temper them such that they didn't erode. I've always wondered if Miroku's hardening process is the cause.

Edited by Westward

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13 minutes ago, figgy said:

Dunks your better off asking a gunsmith to make a pin. They can harden the tip to slow the putting down

I was told off a dealer that Browning had changed the angle on newer guns to stop it happening, apparently not, they just added 15 thou to the pin.

Some videos on YouTube showing how to change the pin and mainspring. Lots are just changing them as and when needed.

Thanks. Mine do seem to be OK so I will approach the problem if and when it happens. You are correct about the angle.

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I recently had misfires with my 725. I too stripped out the bottom pin and had to tap the pin out from the breech face end. Having thoroughly cleaned pin, housing and return spring, I coated lightly with Lucas red grease and refitted. I am not convinced that the problem is the actual pin but more carbon deposits getting back through the breech face and preventing FULL retraction of the pin. This then causes too big a gap between the back of the pin and the hammer, causing a ' light strike' as was certainly the case with my gun. I will now , in future, strip and clean both pins every 6 months. There was no pitting to either pin tip and my gun was an ex demo, I have also put several thousand rounds through it. It really will not matter what material the pins are made of if the pin, spring and housing are gunged up, preventing correct working of the gun. 

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This the one common fault with all Browning /Miroku guns .Belgium and Japaneses  No one has ever really come up with a definitive answer as to why . Having had conversations about this with Browning  and ex Browning employees  , both in the UK and Belgium   .

 I am still none the wiser but could give list of theories that range from the materials used , these have been changed on several occasions ,the angel of the striker  ,  the electrolytic effect of steel on brass , or the shape of the anvil in the priver causing  spark erosion .

I personally take the primer option as this problem did not seem to be so common in times past but seems to have been more prevalent over the last 15 years . 

Take your pick .

 

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I have looked very carefully at this problem and I have another theory.

The hammers on my 525 are not rebounding which means that after the striker hits the primer it stays in that position, forced against the primer by the hammer.

On opening the gun two things happen. the barrels swing down wiping the firing pin against the primer but at the same time the hammers are cocked and moved away from the firing pins allowing the spring in the bottom pin to retract it. Too long a firing pin or slackness in timing means the pin could be forced back by the cartridge.

stuck or dirty and slow to retract firing pin would certainly cause problems.

I blacked a fired cartridge and again fired it in the bottom barrel the striker mark was oval proving that there is slight drag even on a perfect working system.

Just my thoughts. I invite comment!

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19 minutes ago, DUNKS said:

I have looked very carefully at this problem and I have another theory.

The hammers on my 525 are not rebounding which means that after the striker hits the primer it stays in that position, forced against the primer by the hammer.

On opening the gun two things happen. the barrels swing down wiping the firing pin against the primer but at the same time the hammers are cocked and moved away from the firing pins allowing the spring in the bottom pin to retract it. Too long a firing pin or slackness in timing means the pin could be forced back by the cartridge.

stuck or dirty and slow to retract firing pin would certainly cause problems.

I blacked a fired cartridge and again fired it in the bottom barrel the striker mark was oval proving that there is slight drag even on a perfect working system.

Just my thoughts. I invite comment!

I have known plenty of Brownings that have suffered from the lower firing pin being dragged across the fired primer and head of the cartridge, eventually it damages the pin.

You might have thought Browning would have addressed the situation by now.

Years ago a mate of mine had a lovely B2G Skeet gun and that suffered from the problem, that would have been in the early 1990s!

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4 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

You might have thought Browning would have addressed the situation by now.

Years ago a mate of mine had a lovely B2G Skeet gun and that suffered from the problem, that would have been in the early 1990s!

The problem there is geometry. Browning designed the action in the 1920s and either ignored or didn't know about the Boss action, so he hinged the barrels like a SxS, which means the hook and crosspin fulcrum is too far below the breech for an over under barrelset. This means the bottom shell head can't as rapidly clear from the breech face as quickly when the gun is opened as on other guns with Boss style hinges. That's why the length of the bottom firing pin is absolutely critical, probably too critical for factory production.

A good gunsmith will make pins up and fit them exactly to the individual gun.

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31 minutes ago, Westward said:

The problem there is geometry. Browning designed the action in the 1920s and either ignored or didn't know about the Boss action, so he hinged the barrels like a SxS, which means the hook and crosspin fulcrum is too far below the breech for an over under barrelset. This means the bottom shell head can't as rapidly clear from the breech face as quickly when the gun is opened as on other guns with Boss style hinges. That's why the length of the bottom firing pin is absolutely critical, probably too critical for factory production.

A good gunsmith will make pins up and fit them exactly to the individual gun.

You would still hope that in the intervening years the design might have been improved!

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