Extreme pheasant shooting

[Scully]

The only factor I find strange is one group criticising another, when after all is said and done, we’re all doing the same thing, namely killing things for recreation. How one group can attempt to justify what they do as being morally more defensible than another is beyond me. 
The antis will criticise both groups on equal terms as far as I can see; if we stopped doing one do people really believe the antis would find the remaining more acceptable? Of course not.

Do I think there is more chance of wounding at extreme ranges than at ‘normal ‘ range? Yes, most certainly, but we can all wound at any range. Unfortunately it happens. 

Would I ‘ have a go ‘ if that borderline bird presented itself over me and I was pretty sure my gear was up to the job? Course I would. 
 

[lancer425]

You can dress it up anyway you like, fact is these high shooters clain 80 yard shots, post videos purporting to show this happening.

 If that’s not glorifying 80 and more yard shots then i do not know what is.!

Fact is they got called out and for good reason, now its dawned on them they can not back it up. and we are dissecting every word of every post looking for a get out of jail free card some where.

 Just post up some pictures at 80 yards pattern. A lot of us on this forum know exactly what they are going to look like.

We just need you to post them up, but we k now it wont happen. Think contacting hull might be a good move get their take on this. Official.

[button]

36 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

You can dress it up anyway you like, fact is these high shooters clain 80 yard shots, post videos purporting to show this happening.

 If that’s not glorifying 80 and more yard shots then i do not know what is.!

Fact is they got called out and for good reason, now its dawned on them they can not back it up. and we are dissecting every word of every post looking for a get out of jail free card some where.

 Just post up some pictures at 80 yards pattern. A lot of us on this forum know exactly what they are going to look like.

We just need you to post them up, but we k now it wont happen. Think contacting hull might be a good move get their take on this. Official.

Good idea - contact Hull

Let us know how you get on

ATB

[CharlieT]

25 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

You can dress it up anyway you like, fact is these high shooters clain 80 yard shots, post videos purporting to show this happening.

 If that’s not glorifying 80 and more yard shots theni do not know what is.!

Fact is they got called out and for good reason, now its dawned on them they can not back it up. and we are dissecting every word of every post looking for a get out of jail free card some where.

 Just post up some pictures at 80 yards pattern. A lot of us on this forum know exactly what they are going to look like.

We just need you to post them up, but we k now it wont happen. Think contacting hull might be a good move get their take on this. Official.

You really are becoming most tiresome, high birds are shot  up and down the country day in, day out. All those shooting them have progressed, as their skill has improved, from hedge hoppers to high birds. 

I don't need to prove anything, If you don't believe me get up from your keyboard, put your boots on and go and watch it happen. You can then come back and admit you were wrong and your preconceived assumptions were ill founded.  

[button]

6 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

You really are becoming most tiresome, high birds are shot  up and down the country day in, day out. All those shooting them have progressed, as their skill has improved, from hedge hoppers to high birds. 

I don't need to prove anything, If you don't believe me get up from your keyboard, put your boots on and go and watch it happen. You can then come back and admit you were wrong and your preconceived assumptions were ill founded.  

Progressed, with out checking back i'm sure some are still quoting Gough Thomas and his findings, from over 4 decades ago!

I'm sure if they saw for themselves what a proper high bird shot is capable of they would accuse their eyes of deceiving them!

[lancer425]

1 minute ago, button said:

Progressed, with out checking back i'm sure some are still quoting Gough Thomas and his findings, from over 4 decades ago!

I'm sure if they saw for themselves what a proper high bird shot is capable of they would accuse their eyes of deceiving them!

This is shotguns not a lot has changed not a lot can. Buffer has been around forever not that its in the 35 gram loads here. And pattern driver wads even flight control wads wont get 80 yards clean reliable  from a 12 and that lo ac

So what is this load how is it so special, we just are getting zero input no explanation and then being accused of  REALLY TIRESOME!

Give us all a break back up this garbage with some real facts or back down, coming out with a lot of excuses not to show the science , just shows you chaps have nothing to offer.

[lancer425]

13 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

I'll leave this here. As it is only 122 yards which the neyseyers will choke on, but proves the developments in cartridges that the conventional dinosaurs will dismiss but under the mis sale of goods act and false advertising would be banned if not true.

How you can dust a clay at 122yds with no pattern maybe they would like to explain. 

I've just quoted in all this that you can kill pheasants at 80yds! I've been called a liar. Please contact Eley for your thoughts on this!

 

What developments the case is Typical Maxam company fodder as Saaga rio etc parent company primer most probably a G1000 its a typical plaswad and nickel plated shot, look back in this thread its not that much different from what i sid might work best, but was still not up to task. No buffer and no solid wadding to help pressure and ignition, my choice of powder is up on theirs which is down to price the platted case head is fassion. the longshot load would eat that factory load. but still be no 80 yard clean phesant killer despite that.

 

[CharlieT]

Have a read of this Shooting Gazette article from 2015.

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/uncategorized/best-shotgun-cartridge-hitting-high-birds-40056

Then, as I said, go see for yourself.

Nothing like seeing is believing.

[andrewluke]

8 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

Have a read of this Shooting Gazette article from 2015.

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/uncategorized/best-shotgun-cartridge-hitting-high-birds-40056

Then, as I said, go see for yourself.

Nothing like seeing is believing.

 

"At 80 yards it’s kill or miss", these are the cartridges i've been dreaming of
 

[wymberley]

53 minutes ago, button said:

Progressed, with out checking back i'm sure some are still quoting Gough Thomas and his findings, from over 4 decades ago!

I'm sure if they saw for themselves what a proper high bird shot is capable of they would accuse their eyes of deceiving them!

I have quoted Gough Thomas (GT) on this thread. As far as I'm concerned his definition of maximum range has stood the test of time and I've never known anyone who has felt the need to contradict it. Back on Page 4, I think it was, I asked what would be your definition but so far you've declined the opportunity to make an impression - although, as I did the same, you too may heve missed it.

What might also surprise you, is that towards the end of GT's lifetime when there were major studies into shotgun effective range going on, he indicated that he might have got things a little wrong and that he (we) had been over-estimating effective ranges. He was right, of course, we had.

Perhaps now that you are aware of my question, you might like to answer it. Simply acknowledging that Gough Thomas probably got it right would suffice.

Re the 45 (PLEASE NOTE - I think I had a slip of the pen on my previous Post and put  '1' for '5') pellets, see Dipper's Post on Page 15. Somehow although I used his figures and his explanation of 40 yards onwards, somehow we managed to get differing answers. With 5/8 choke at 40 yards, the 167 pellets drop down to 62.5% or104 pellets. From that simply run minus 10% in the (8 off) 5 yard stages. In short, I have absolutely no idea if that is correct. My preferred choice of disciplines has meant that anything much more, if at all, passed 50 yards is of no consequence.

[rbrowning2]

18 minutes ago, CharlieT said:

Have a read of this Shooting Gazette article from 2015.

https://www.shootinguk.co.uk/uncategorized/best-shotgun-cartridge-hitting-high-birds-40056

Then, as I said, go see for yourself.

Nothing like seeing is believing.

And that article is taken apart here 

http://www.####.co.uk/ballistics1.htm

 

[dipper]

I think 5/8 choke was being used because it was producing the tightest pattern with the cartridge being used.I  put the 40 yd pattern at 80% quite easy to produce  with a decent cartridge.Full chokes not always tightest pattern .If I started of at 70% pattern that would mean less shot on target.

[dipper]

Just reread article by Frank Morgen .Think some of the posters on here at his followers.That guy should take up golf .Hes clearly clueless about range.

[Hamster]

3 minutes ago, dipper said:

Just reread article by Frank Morgen .Think some of the posters on here at his followers.That guy should take up golf .Hes clearly clueless about range.

Sadly he is indeed clueless about range, patterns and required kinetic energy to kill a pheasant at 80-90 yards. Always remember the oft quoted requisite energy figures are arbitrary inventions and since nobody as yet has produced the findings of an actual study, they remain hogwash. 

Funny how some people keep telling us cartridges have come along and improved and yet they refuse to show us facts and figures. The only way I’d be convinced is via an independent unbiased test carried out pretty much in real time and it has to show a minimum of 10 shots. 

[motty]

3 hours ago, Scully said:

The only factor I find strange is one group criticising another, when after all is said and done, we’re all doing the same thing, namely killing things for recreation. How one group can attempt to justify what they do as being morally more defensible than another is beyond me. 
The antis will criticise both groups on equal terms as far as I can see; if we stopped doing one do people really believe the antis would find the remaining more acceptable? Of course not.

Do I think there is more chance of wounding at extreme ranges than at ‘normal ‘ range? Yes, most certainly, but we can all wound at any range. Unfortunately it happens. 

Would I ‘ have a go ‘ if that borderline bird presented itself over me and I was pretty sure my gear was up to the job? Course I would. 
 

I agree with some of what you say, but borderline birds aren't being discussed.

So far, a 99 yard pheasant has been mentioned. Hardly borderline!

2 hours ago, CharlieT said:

You really are becoming most tiresome, high birds are shot  up and down the country day in, day out. All those shooting them have progressed, as their skill has improved, from hedge hoppers to high birds. 

I don't need to prove anything, If you don't believe me get up from your keyboard, put your boots on and go and watch it happen. You can then come back and admit you were wrong and your preconceived assumptions were ill founded.  

Have you pattern tested any cartridges at 80 yards? 99 yards?

[motty]

2 hours ago, button said:

Progressed, with out checking back i'm sure some are still quoting Gough Thomas and his findings, from over 4 decades ago!

I'm sure if they saw for themselves what a proper high bird shot is capable of they would accuse their eyes of deceiving them!

It has nothing to do with the accuracy of the person holding the gun!!!

[motty]

1 hour ago, andrewluke said:

 

"At 80 yards it’s kill or miss", these are the cartridges i've been dreaming of
 

Yep, that's a truly ridiculous quote!

[lancer425]

55 minutes ago, dipper said:

I think 5/8 choke was being used because it was producing the tightest pattern with the cartridge being used.I  put the 40 yd pattern at 80% quite easy to produce  with a decent cartridge.Full chokes not always tightest pattern .If I started of at 70% pattern that would mean less shot on target.

Choke can be complex  many things can make changes to a pattern. But more % at a given range generally comes from more choke.  With Lead its often about how its loaded  powder characteristics pressures and more.  Choke swaping is a luxury we have all come to take for granted, but historicaly your Gough thomases etc adjusted the loads tended to give them a better understanding on what was happening.

 

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, dipper said:

Just reread article by Frank Morgen .Think some of the posters on here at his followers.That guy should take up golf .Hes clearly clueless about range.

Because I have a lot of time for the guy that provided the link, I read it.

Oh dear!  75% pattern density at 80 yards.

I have simply no idea how rife this activity is. I'm not talking high birds, but stupidly high birds whereby it's all down to sheer luck. Such articles as the one mentioned would suggest that it is becoming more popular with the participators being mislead regarding the effectiveness of their kit by such blatently false representations by those with a pecuniary interest. It needs reigning in.

[lancer425]

1 hour ago, dipper said:

Just reread article by Frank Morgen .Think some of the posters on here at his followers.That guy should take up golf .Hes clearly clueless about range.

 That article is more akin to the best works of HG Wells than a factual Sporting shotgun article.

If these chaps have been reading such struff and taking it as fact no wonder they are so confused by basic facts.

  My sugestion is go pattern your very best load and gun and report back here with your results, your doing too much reading not enough real world hunting and no way enough pattern testing to make yourselves as supper efficient as you so like to think you are.

 

[Scully]

1 hour ago, motty said:

I agree with some of what you say, but borderline birds aren't being discussed.

So far, a 99 yard pheasant has been mentioned. Hardly borderline!

 

I seriously doubt I could tell the difference between a 70, 80 or 90 yard bird as I’m just not that interested, and although I would like ‘a go’ on extreme birds I don’t think it’s something I would enjoy on a regular basis as I like to kill more than I miss. 
Beaters day on BIG shoot is full of exceptionally impressive birds to my mind, and while they may not be ‘extreme’, ( although some may be ) the shoot is lauded for their presentation, by guns and guests alike. 

[motty]

6 minutes ago, Scully said:

I seriously doubt I could tell the difference between a 70, 80 or 90 yard bird as I’m just not that interested, and although I would like ‘a go’ on extreme birds I don’t think it’s something I would enjoy on a regular basis as I like to kill more than I miss. 
Beaters day on BIG shoot is full of exceptionally impressive birds to my mind, and while they may not be ‘extreme’, ( although some may be ) the shoot is lauded for their presentation, by guns and guests alike. 

Yep, I'm all for high bird shoots showing off some fine targets. This thread, however, has shown that poor range estimation and a sad lack of knowledge of a shotgun's capabilities and limitations.

I shoot thousands of pigeons each year. I like to think I do so pretty efficiently, when I'm on form. There is no way, though, that I would even consider firing at an 80 yard pigeon, as it is extremely likely to end up a wounded bird, regardless of cartridge selection.

[Blackpowder]

1 hour ago, motty said:

Yep, I'm all for high bird shoots showing off some fine targets. This thread, however, has shown that poor range estimation and a sad lack of knowledge of a shotgun's capabilities and limitations.

I shoot thousands of pigeons each year. I like to think I do so pretty efficiently, when I'm on form. There is no way, though, that I would even consider firing at an 80 yard pigeon, as it is extremely likely to end up a wounded bird, regardless of cartridge selection.

Here we have words of wisdom and common sense.

 

Blackpowder

[button]

1 hour ago, motty said:

Yep, I'm all for high bird shoots showing off some fine targets. This thread, however, has shown that poor range estimation and a sad lack of knowledge of a shotgun's capabilities and limitations.

I shoot thousands of pigeons each year. I like to think I do so pretty efficiently, when I'm on form. There is no way, though, that I would even consider firing at an 80 yard pigeon, as it is extremely likely to end up a wounded bird, regardless of cartridge selection.

You say 000's how many you talking 1,2,3, 10?

[andrewluke]

11 minutes ago, button said:

You say 000's how many you talking 1,2,3, 10?

how many do you need to shoot before you can take on the 80 yarders??