This is NOT life!

[Rewulf]

1 hour ago, grrclark said:

if someone is prepared to stab someone indiscriminately then they are not capable of being reasoned with, hence unreasonable in the most literal sense of the word.  So a reasoned or reasonable argument doesn’t work as they just don’t care

So whats the point of trying to rehabilitate them? 

Stick them out on a rock in the outer hebrides, or pay the Russians to house them in Siberia, I care not. 

Some people want to smother them in the love they've supposedly never had, introduce them to God and give them a degree, yet the figures speak for themselves, over half of them will go on to reoffend, they don't fear the system! 

1 hour ago, oowee said:

^^^^ This. Don't be duped by a short term election bribe look at the wider issues

Yes, been here before, throw some money at it ect. 

It's not working, because the culture of crime is 'glamorous' you could give them £100,000 a piece and tell them to spend it wisely and be nice. It would only amount to what it costs in less than 3 years of prison 'care' 

But they would likely spend it on guns drugs and being gangsta. 

You have to realise what you're fighting, before you can figure out the strategy. 

I'll give you a clue, it isn't poverty. 

[oowee]

9 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

So whats the point of trying to rehabilitate them? 

Stick them out on a rock in the outer hebrides, or pay the Russians to house them in Siberia, I care not. 

Some people want to smother them in the love they've supposedly never had, introduce them to God and give them a degree, yet the figures speak for themselves, over half of them will go on to reoffend, they don't fear the system! 

Yes, been here before, throw some money at it ect. 

It's not working, because the culture of crime is 'glamorous' you could give them £100,000 a piece and tell them to spend it wisely and be nice. It would only amount to what it costs in less than 3 years of prison 'care' 

But they would likely spend it on guns drugs and being gangsta. 

You have to realise what you're fighting, before you can figure out the strategy. 

I'll give you a clue, it isn't poverty. 

Fortunately some of our Politicians take a more educated approach. Lets learn from best practice as a starter for ten. Stop wasting money buying votes from a gullible public. 

Not what the mob want to hear but It is poverty, it is lack of opportunity, it is lack of education, it is institutional racial prejudice, it is a lack of parental control, it is health and housing. These people are not born monsters. 

[Dougy]

The 2 things that have been found guilty have had their few minutes of fame, and their faces on TV. They, in there world, have now been awarded stars for there lapel. I would not give them the time of day let alone any publicity apart from the sentence of LIFE. 

No names

No pictures 

And if it were me, no food or water for the rest of their short life. In fact we are allowed to do that for the terminally ill. 

 

 

To walk up to a totally innocent young girl and end her life in a few seconds deserves the more than they have been awarded by the court, as in most cases for murder. 

[TIGHTCHOKE]

[old'un]

8 minutes ago, oowee said:

Fortunately some of our Politicians take a more educated approach. Lets learn from best practice as a starter for ten. Stop wasting money buying votes from a gullible public. 

Not what the mob want to hear but It is poverty, it is lack of opportunity, it is lack of education, it is institutional racial prejudice, it is a lack of parental control, it is health and housing. These people are not born monsters. 

Some of those things may push them to a life of crime but they have a choice of which path they take.

[KB1]

15 minutes ago, oowee said:

Fortunately some of our Politicians take a more educated approach. Lets learn from best practice as a starter for ten. Stop wasting money buying votes from a gullible public. 

Not what the mob want to hear but It is poverty, it is lack of opportunity, it is lack of education, it is institutional racial prejudice, it is a lack of parental control, it is health and housing. These people are not born monsters. 

You forgot 'lack of discipline'😳

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, old'un said:

Some of those things may push them to a life of crime but they have a choice of which path they take.

Where does the choice come from and how do they make that choice Why do they choose the path they do? Its easy looking in from the outside to say they should do this or that. Fortunately most of us have little experience of the world that many of these perps come from. 

 

1 minute ago, KB1 said:

You forgot 'lack of discipline'😳

Yep that as well although I would use the term structure. 

[KB1]

Just now, oowee said:

Where does the choice come from and how do they make that choice Why do they choose the path they do? Its easy looking in from the outside to say they should do this or that. Fortunately most of us have little experience of the world that many of these perps come from. 

 

Yep that as well although I would use the term structure. 

I can't remember being 'Structured' by the Beat Bobby when I was a kid🥴

[WestonSalop]

2 minutes ago, KB1 said:

I can't remember being 'Structured' by the Beat Bobby when I was a kid🥴

I can. So would several of my mates from the time (mid 70's). We weren't serious trouble makers and by todays standards, we were certainly not a threat to society but the boys in blue didn't like the look of us. I saw and felt the totally unjustified use of unnecessary force and it took me many years to gain any respect for the police. We may have gone too far the other way in that coppers today feel they cant use their initiative for fear of losing their jobs but we must never go back to the days of beating the living daylights out of "trouble makers". 

[Rewulf]

28 minutes ago, oowee said:

Not what the mob want to hear but It is poverty, it is lack of opportunity, it is lack of education, it is institutional racial prejudice, it is a lack of parental control, it is health and housing. These people are not born monsters

You probably want to check the backgrounds of the creatures who were involved in Jodies murder. 

Like I said, it's not about poverty. 

[old'un]

15 minutes ago, oowee said:

Where does the choice come from and how do they make that choice Why do they choose the path they do? Its easy looking in from the outside to say they should do this or that. Fortunately most of us have little experience of the world that many of these perps come from. 

 

Yep that as well although I would use the term structure. 

I watched a program some time back, one of the people on the program was Sir Alan Sugar, he made the comment…’anyone can make money (legally) if they try hard enough…just look at me’.

The choice is theirs and theirs alone, does not matter what their circumstances or background are, we all have a choice.

[oowee]

12 minutes ago, old'un said:

I watched a program some time back, one of the people on the program was Sir Alan Sugar, he made the comment…’anyone can make money (legally) if they try hard enough…just look at me’.

The choice is theirs and theirs alone, does not matter what their circumstances or background are, we all have a choice.

So why do they make the choice they do? 

[Retsdon]

There are always people who'll take the 'wrong' path. That said, it's no accident that the highest crime rates tend to be in societies and areas with high rates of immigration. And there would seem to be a reason for this. And I think the chief one is that one of the things that nearly all people - but especially young adults - crave is a sense of belonging. But where you have areas with high rates of immigration the fabric of society becomes fractured. If a lad walks down a street that his grandfather walked down 60 years before and  the first four people he meets went to school with his mother and father and know his name, you can pretty much bet that the kid won't be carrying a knife nor that would ever, in his wildest dreams, think of doing so. And that's almost certainly true no matter where on the planet that street happens to be. So it's not a race thing - it's that a sense of security and belonging  means that he knows he's 'home'. He's nothing to prove to anyone and he;s comfortable and secure. Not to mention that he can't do anything wrong because everyone knows who he is! But when you have areas of a city that are basically Towers of Babel - like a lot of  UK inner cities are now -  what happens is that gangs become the 'home society' for kids who basically have no other sense of identity. And then it's a downward spiral. 

Sure, there has to be hard punishments for violent crime. But also the greater society has to recognize there are certain conditions which inevitably give rise to an increase in crime and a sense of alienation and not belonging is, in my book, the most important of these. So if you want to counter violent crime, the best place to start is to offer young men an alternative 'sense of belonging' that doesn't involve joining a gang.  And that I would imagine would probably mean funding for grassroots initiatives organizations, etc, so as to grow an organic sense of community among this global flotsam and jetsam diaspora that the country has imported over the last 30 year or so.

Money, money, money...

[henry d]

23 minutes ago, old'un said:

I watched a program some time back, one of the people on the program was Sir Alan Sugar, he made the comment…’anyone can make money (legally) if they try hard enough…just look at me’.

The choice is theirs and theirs alone, does not matter what their circumstances or background are, we all have a choice.

Absolute rubbish, from AS regurgitated by you unfortunately. I work with young people some of whom have good parents and opportunities but lack any understanding of how the world works and will need help from many different services for the rest of their lives, others have to sleeep with a knife under their pillow (since they were 8 iirc) because they were terrified by people punting their doors in to rob their parents and can't sleep if they don't have one. Will these people be our next panel on Dragons den? Hardly, they will possibly get dead end jobs if they are lucky but will need lots of support and that will require money not someone who can quite happily tell them that they could have done better if they made the right choice!

[Walker570]

1 hour ago, oowee said:

Where does the choice come from and how do they make that choice Why do they choose the path they do? Its easy looking in from the outside to say they should do this or that. Fortunately most of us have little experience of the world that many of these perps come from. 

 

Yep that as well although I would use the term structure. 

What a load of round bouncy things.  I see the heap of garbage who killed the old lady recently had previous for the same offence...twice...but they let him out to do it again.

Due to a whole bunch of over educated idiots taking charge of the mad house we are in the state we are in.  A friend once said to me when I commented on how well mannered their three youngsters where and a pleasure to be with and she replide " Monkey see, Monkey do"  Watch some of the behaviour by parents and kids in supermarkets to see where everyhting is going wrong.

[Retsdon]

36 minutes ago, old'un said:

I watched a program some time back, one of the people on the program was Sir Alan Sugar, he made the comment…’anyone can make money (legally) if they try hard enough…just look at me’.

And he was basically just miming along to Bounderby, the mill owner in Dickens' novel Hard Times. I can't remember the quote exactly, but Dickens made the point in Hard Times that among self-made men like Bounderby there's a belief that the poor are poor because they deserve it, because if only they (the poor) were prepared to pull themselves up by their bootstraps they too could all be mill-owners or captains of industry.

It was nonsense in Dickens' time, and it's nonsense now.

[henry d]

Just now, Walker570 said:

What a load of round bouncy things.  I see the heap of garbage who killed the old lady recently had previous for the same offence...twice...but they let him out to do it again.

Due to a whole bunch of over educated idiots taking charge of the mad house we are in the state we are in.  A friend once said to me when I commented on how well mannered their three youngsters where and a pleasure to be with and she replide " Monkey see, Monkey do"  Watch some of the behaviour by parents and kids in supermarkets to see where everyhting is going wrong.

Strangely enough my wife heard someone complain loudly to their friends about "the behaviour of some children!" She was taking children with complex and multiple support issues such as ASD, global delay, etc out to a cafe as it is good for them to visit public places for their development and I suppose using your friends analogy both the parents, my wife and the school are to blame?

[Walker570]

8 minutes ago, henry d said:

Strangely enough my wife heard someone complain loudly to their friends about "the behaviour of some children!" She was taking children with complex and multiple support issues such as ASD, global delay, etc out to a cafe as it is good for them to visit public places for their development and I suppose using your friends analogy both the parents, my wife and the school are to blame?

100% support for your wife BUT her situation is a very very small occurence in the scheme of things. I see very badly behaved children every day when I go into shops and eating places. I occasionally see parties of children as you describe and try my best to make them feel normal by passing the time of day etc and hey always appreciate it.   It's the low life parents I am ranting about, 'lardy dar' very often with their offspring attacking shelves of goods etc etc.,  If you have not seen it then i suggest you get out and about more often.

I think I put it on here before but worth repeating. My wife was in an Aldi store and wanted an item from a top shelf but a hugely obese woman was standing infront staring at the produce. She had three kids of various ages at her heals and one of them said to her that a lady behind wanted to get to the top shelf.... reply ...

"I'm fing looking ain't I ?"    now tell me what chance do those kids stand. She was obviously one of Corbyns poor because she had at least a grands worth of tattoos visible.

Edited November 19, 2019 by Walker570

[old'un]

25 minutes ago, henry d said:

Absolute rubbish, from AS regurgitated by you unfortunately. I work with young people some of whom have good parents and opportunities but lack any understanding of how the world works and will need help from many different services for the rest of their lives, others have to sleeep with a knife under their pillow (since they were 8 iirc) because they were terrified by people punting their doors in to rob their parents and can't sleep if they don't have one. Will these people be our next panel on Dragons den? Hardly, they will possibly get dead end jobs if they are lucky but will need lots of support and that will require money not someone who can quite happily tell them that they could have done better if they made the right choice!

Absolute rubbish, well I know nothing of your background and you of mine, all I will say is I do know about choices and what happens if we make the wrong one.

 

13 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

And he was basically just miming along to Bounderby, the mill owner in Dickens' novel Hard Times. I can't remember the quote exactly, but Dickens made the point in Hard Times that among self-made men like Bounderby there's a belief that the poor are poor because they deserve it, because if only they (the poor) were prepared to pull themselves up by their bootstraps they too could all be mill-owners or captains of industry.

It was nonsense in Dickens' time, and it's nonsense now.

These two men made the choice to become involved with drugs, they made the choice to stab and kill an innocent young girl, I doubt they had any intention of finding a job or opening a mill.

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, Walker570 said:

100% support for your wife BUT her situation is a very very small occurence in the scheme of things. I see very badly behaved children every day when I go into shops and eating places. I occasionally see parties of children as you describe and try my best to make them feel normal by passing the time of day etc and hey always appreciate it.   It's the low life parents I am ranting about, 'lardy dar' very often with their offspring attacking shelves of goods etc etc.,  If you have not seen it then i suggest you get out and about more often.

And there in you confirm part of the point I am making. These kids often do not have the boundaries in place the guidance required to get the most out of them. We have simple choices. Hit them with a hammer and keep doing it time and time again like some old record or take a positive approach to tackling the causes. 

 

3 minutes ago, old'un said:

Absolute rubbish, well I know nothing of your background and you of mine, all I will say is I do know about choices and what happens if we make the wrong one.

 

These two men made the choice to become involved with drugs, they made the choice to stab and kill an innocent young girl, I doubt they had any intention of finding a job or opening a mill.

So answer the question. Why did they make that choice? 

[Walker570]

Why did they make that choice   ...as said   Monkey See Monkey Doo ....garbage parents, that is fi they could find them all of course amongst the many ex  'partners' to use a word which seems to have written off husband and wife. You do not have to look far if you take off your rose tinted glasses.

 

Don't for one moment think this is a new thing. My father would often drag me off the local playing field for no apparent reason. Later in life I found out that three of the kids I was playing with were serving time and one at the same time as his father.  My father never explained this to me at the time but was fully aware of who i was mixing with and so protecting my future. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Walker570

[Dougy]

what a load of twoddle, you cannot say that poverty creates murderers, thats just ridiculous. 

 

You know whats right and whats wrong end of !!! i just cant believe what some folk think. 

 

I come from a poor up-bringing i think i will go and kill someone.  

 

No its just an excuse that is put into their heads by idiots thinking they have the answer to sort this carp out, when in fact its more likely them that make the problem bigger. 

No deterrent at all and this case just shows that.  

 

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Dougy

[Walker570]

3 minutes ago, Dougy said:

what a load of twoddle, you cannot say that poverty creates murderers, thats just ridiculous. 

 

You know whats right and whats wrong end of !!! i just cant believe what some folk think. 

 

I come from a poor up-bringing i think i will go and kill someone.  

 

No its just an excuse that is put into their heads by idiots thinking they have the answer to sort this carp out, when in fact its more likely them that make the problem bigger. 

No deterrent at all and this case just shows that.  

 

 

on the nail 100%

[oowee]

1 minute ago, Walker570 said:

Why did they make that choice   ...as said   Monkey See Monkey Doo ....garbage parents, that is fi they could find them all of course amongst the many ex  'partners' to use a word which seems to have written off husband and wife. You do not have to look far if you take off your rose tinted glasses.

Agreed these problems are caused not born. 

1 minute ago, Dougy said:

what a load of twoddle, you cannot say that poverty creates murderers, thats just ridiculous. 

 

You know whats right and whats wrong end of !!! i just cant believe what some folk think. 

 

I come from a poor up-bringing i think i will go and kill someone.  

 

No its just an excuse that is put into their heads by idiots thinking they have the answer to sort this carp out, when in fact its more likely them that make the problem bigger. 

No deterrent at all and this case just shows that.  

No one is saying its caused by poverty. Go back and read the post. It clearly states a range of problems including comprehension. 

Deterrents are only part of the solution.

[TIGHTCHOKE]

Deterrent, great word, shame that we as a country do not have an established deterrent to scare these horrible people from their dark ways!