This is NOT life!

[Retsdon]

5 minutes ago, Dougy said:

what a load of twoddle, you cannot say that poverty creates murderers, thats just ridiculous. 

it's a factor. 

[old'un]

13 minutes ago, oowee said:

And there in you confirm part of the point I am making. These kids often do not have the boundaries in place the guidance required to get the most out of them. We have simple choices. Hit them with a hammer and keep doing it time and time again like some old record or take a positive approach to tackling the causes. 

 

So answer the question. Why did they make that choice? 

I don’t really know why they took the path they did, perhaps they thought it was the only way to gain respect and money but to deny they did not have a choice is just plain crazy.

[stumfelter]

Some people are just born bad.

[oowee]

1 minute ago, old'un said:

I don’t really know why they took the path they did, perhaps they thought it was the only way to gain respect and money but to deny they did not have a choice is just plain crazy.

No one is saying they had no choice. The choice they made makes no sense in the world that we live in but they don't inhabit the same place. Surely to tackle the problem, we have to understand why they are where they are making the choices they make? 

 

1 minute ago, stumfelter said:

Some people are just born bad.

I saw a film like that I think it was the exorcist. 

[Retsdon]

3 minutes ago, stumfelter said:

Some people are just born bad.

Wouldn't argue with that in this case. You have to be a right  - fill in the blank -  to stab an innocent girl for no reason. That said, some environments will nurture the bad side and some the good. Had this person not been in that environment would he have stabbed someone to death. My guess is probably not.

[stumfelter]

Judging by your posts I guessed you only watched fairy stories....

[islandgun]

6 minutes ago, old'un said:

I don’t really know why they took the path they did, perhaps they thought it was the only way to gain respect and money but to deny they did not have a choice is just plain crazy.

very true

 

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

No one is saying they had no choice. The choice they made makes no sense in the world that we live in but they don't inhabit the same place. Surely to tackle the problem, we have to understand why they are where they are making the choices they make? 

 

 

As has been pointed out,  bad parenting, being shown the difference between right and wrong

[das]

21 hours ago, treetree said:

I read my local paper with astonishment and anger as the 'Court Roundup' section details how thieves, drunk drivers, drug dealers, knife carriers, violent attackers and so forth avoid jail time, with the social worker masquerading as a judge tells them what a hard time they've had of it, and how sending them to jail would only make it harder for them to make something of their lives.

I'll bet a penny to the pound these two have a long history of violence, drugs and knife offences that have gone unpunished. When will the powers that be realise it only encourages and emboldens them. And it's people like that poor girl who pay the price.

Keep it short!

[old'un]

8 minutes ago, oowee said:

No one is saying they had no choice. The choice they made makes no sense in the world that we live in but they don't inhabit the same place. Surely to tackle the problem, we have to understand why they are where they are making the choices they make? 

 

I saw a film like that I think it was the exorcist. 

That’s like saying these types do not have the mental capacity to know right from wrong.

[das]

2 hours ago, TIGHTCHOKE said:

Just the job, hang em high.

[oowee]

3 minutes ago, old'un said:

That’s like saying these types do not have the mental capacity to know right from wrong.

Why would right and wrong enter into their thought process?

2 minutes ago, das said:

Just the job, hang em high.

Brutalise a society and you just make more brutes. No way out but death and killing. 

[das]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

Why would right and wrong enter into their thought process?

Brutalise a society and you just make more brutes. No way out but death and killing. 

What in the blue hell would you think if it was your daughter knifed on a park bench.  Scum,  a couple of years in Dachau then to make them good lads?

[oowee]

1 minute ago, das said:

What in the blue hell would you think if it was your daughter knifed on a park bench.  Scum,  a couple of years in Dachau then to make them good lads?

That's why we don't have lynch mob's. 

[old'un]

5 minutes ago, oowee said:

Why would right and wrong enter into their thought process?

Brutalise a society and you just make more brutes. No way out but death and killing. 

So are you saying they do not  have the mental capacity to know right from wrong?

[das]

1 minute ago, oowee said:

That's why we don't have lynch mob's. 

I'm afraid some day that it will happen.

 

2 minutes ago, oowee said:

That's why we don't have lynch mob's. 

 

[oowee]

2 minutes ago, old'un said:

So are you saying they do not  have the mental capacity to know right from wrong?

No idea, I know nothing about them. Looks to me like any thought of right and wrong was not part of the thought process. The same with consequences, and likely outcomes. If they are not thinking of these things even the threat of the death penalty will have no impact. 

[Retsdon]

6 minutes ago, old'un said:

That’s like saying these types do not have the mental capacity to know right from wrong.

What about the boys working for investment banks who knowingly sold dodgy derivatives to pension funds and other savings institutions?  The ones who caused the 98 crash? The mentality is exactly the same. They knew these synthetic CDSs and such that they were pedalling were toxic as anything, but they couldn't have cared less that people were going to lose their life savings. IBGYBG. So basically, if you're a **** but have a good education and the right connections, you work for a merchant bank selling derivatives. If you're ill-educated without connections you work in the drug business selling amphetamines.

The moral code's not a lot different.

 

[islandgun]

2 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

What about the boys working for investment banks who knowingly sold dodgy derivatives to pension funds and other savings institutions?  The ones who caused the 98 crash? The mentality is exactly the same. They knew these synthetic CDSs and such that they were pedalling were toxic as anything, but they couldn't have cared less that people were going to lose their life savings. IBGYBG. So basically, if you're a **** but have a good education and the right connections, you work for a merchant bank selling derivatives. If you're ill-educated without connections you work in the drug business selling amphetamines.

The moral code's not a lot different.

 

education or lack of it, has nothing to do with knowing the difference between right and wrong. everyone on this forum come from differing backgrounds, but those that hold a SGC have [usually] not broken the law or hurt others. 

[old'un]

12 minutes ago, Retsdon said:

What about the boys working for investment banks who knowingly sold dodgy derivatives to pension funds and other savings institutions?  The ones who caused the 98 crash? The mentality is exactly the same. They knew these synthetic CDSs and such that they were pedalling were toxic as anything, but they couldn't have cared less that people were going to lose their life savings. IBGYBG. So basically, if you're a **** but have a good education and the right connections, you work for a merchant bank selling derivatives. If you're ill-educated without connections you work in the drug business selling amphetamines.

The moral code's not a lot different.

 

The problem is, both knew right from wrong but both continued along the wrong path.

[Dougy]

Born bad  most probably . There's bad people from every background.but that does detract from the fact that if you take a life in that way then a sentence of 20% of your life receiving more luxuries than you would out, it certianly ain't punishment. 

 

I want to know were some folk get their rose tinted glasses from,  cus I thought they were just fictional. 

 

Prison cell, no food water no lights naff all. 

 

 

[grrclark]

27 minutes ago, oowee said:

No idea, I know nothing about them. Looks to me like any thought of right and wrong was not part of the thought process. The same with consequences, and likely outcomes. If they are not thinking of these things even the threat of the death penalty will have no impact. 

This is the point.  So many commentators here are looking to introduce a simple answer to a hideously complex problem, that is completely understandable and not wrong in itself, but it is naive to the point of extreme.

There is not a single cause for kids becoming knife murderers and there is not a single solution to fix it.  Society cycles through periods of challenge like this, if we go back to the 70s there was a massive problem with gangs in parts of Scotland, Glasgow and Dundee mainly, and knife crime was very high.  A lot of this was turf wars for gangs that controlled drugs supply in the areas.

A significant factor in the demise of the gangs was the Northern Soul music scene.  For whatever reason the music scene captured the conscience of the gang kids and it stopped them stabbing each other by dancing together.

Different times of course to what is going on now, but it highlights that there are complexities and nuances between the simple Good / Bad argument.

[old man]

2 hours ago, oowee said:

So why do they make the choice they do? 

Possibly as it's easier than working for a living and their tax burden quite light?

[islandgun]

 

 

10 minutes ago, grrclark said:

This is the point.  So many commentators here are looking to introduce a simple answer to a hideously complex problem, that is completely understandable and not wrong in itself, but it is naive to the point of extreme.

There is not a single cause for kids becoming knife murderers and there is not a single solution to fix it.  Society cycles through periods of challenge like this, if we go back to the 70s there was a massive problem with gangs in parts of Scotland, Glasgow and Dundee mainly, and knife crime was very high.  A lot of this was turf wars for gangs that controlled drugs supply in the areas.

A significant factor in the demise of the gangs was the Northern Soul music scene.  For whatever reason the music scene captured the conscience of the gang kids and it stopped them stabbing each other by dancing together.

Different times of course to what is going on now, but it highlights that there are complexities and nuances between the simple Good / Bad argument.

The complex question doesn't have to be that complex..its the individuals choice to change, obviously circumstances in desperate situations can leave individuals with little choice. But to pursue a career in crime must be a conscious decision and a poor understanding of the difference between right and wrong

[JTaylor91]

The world would be better place without them, unfortunately hard working people will now feed and house them for however many years they are locked up. Sentences are soft in this country but harsh sentences don’t reduce crime either (USA). I don’t have a solution, but if capital punishment was brought back for cases like this then it would get my vote. There are crimes you can come back from and others you can’t. This is one you can’t.

[Retsdon]

49 minutes ago, Dougy said:

Born bad  most probably .

Bad to the bone! https://youtu.be/X9FyQNx8oyU?t=5

...I need your clothes and your boots and your motorcycle... https://youtu.be/pJ4Ol9Tb1D0

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Retsdon