This is NOT life!

[Scully]

21 minutes ago, henry d said:

I work with young people some of whom have good parents and opportunities but lack any understanding of how the world works and will need help from many different services for the rest of their lives, others have to sleeep with a knife under their pillow (since they were 8 iirc) because they were terrified by people punting their doors in to rob their parents and can't sleep if they don't have one. Will these people be our next panel on Dragons den? Hardly, they will possibly get dead end jobs if they are lucky but will need lots of support and that will require money not someone who can quite happily tell them that they could have done better if they made the right choice!

Ok. That's all well and good henry, and good for you for trying to help, but where does all this sit with the two who are the topic of this thread? They murdered a young girl at random for reasons best known to themselves, and being the big brave gangsta types they are, rather than expressing any regret or remorse, tried to pass the buck by blaming the other. They will be released at some point to carry on with their lives, and a second bite of the cherry. How does this sit with you? Do you find this acceptable? 

[das]

1 hour ago, Dougy said:

Born bad  most probably . There's bad people from every background.but that does detract from the fact that if you take a life in that way then a sentence of 20% of your life receiving more luxuries than you would out, it certianly ain't punishment. 

 

I want to know were some folk get their rose tinted glasses from,  cus I thought they were just fictional. 

 

Prison cell, no food water no lights naff all. 

 

 

Hard labour =  Extreme corporal punishment. It will knock them over or make them fit.

[grrclark]

55 minutes ago, islandgun said:

The complex question doesn't have to be that complex..its the individuals choice to change, obviously circumstances in desperate situations can leave individuals with little choice. But to pursue a career in crime must be a conscious decision and a poor understanding of the difference between right and wrong

For some undoubtably so, it is simple choice and they choose not to care, but for others i’m not convinced that it is a binary choice, their choices are born from circumstance, external influence, bad decision making, misguidance and host of other things too.

We who pontificate on this thread are all generally well balanced and mostly rational, sure we differ in opinion and in some cases it is a big difference, but the point is none of us are influenced to the point of extreme like those that we are discussing.

I’m not making excuses for them either, if people make a considered choice to murder someone, the consideration being murder or not murder, then they deserve the full punishment of the law and I agree with Scully’s opening post that when you consider the girl who lost her life and the impact of that on her family, etc then a sentence where the perpetrators can be released whilst still in their 40’s feels fundamentally wrong.

However I genuinely do not believe that the threat of the noose or some savagely penal system would have changed their decision making, in the same circumstance I believe they would have still murdered that girl.  Understanding why they think like that is the challenge.  It is short termism in the extreme, no consideration of any consequence beyond the immediate action of satisfying whatever need compelled them to do it.

It is no dissimilar to an alcoholic taking that first drink after being sober or the junkie taking a hit again after being clean, they know the consequence but they do it regardless because something in them drives them to it.

It is a mental or cognitive disorder conditioned by all manner of influence, some might be able to be reconditioned and others not. And of course there are some that are just sociopathic monsters.

[Raja Clavata]

My son attends the same sixth form college as Jodie Chesney attended, so this is pretty local to us. One of the "children" acquitted of the crime went to the same comprehensive that three generations of my family attended.

There is only so far you can go with the view that the perpetrators of this crime are themselves victims, they certainly may have been vulnerable in the past but they took decisions that means they must be held accountable. I'm pretty sure one way of improving the situation around this is to find a way to prevent disruptive kids from being expelled as that appears to be a common theme here.

A young life has been tragically lost, a family destroyed but there is a generation of teens who actually fear going out and doing things that I took for granted at their age. I certainly have more tolerance of kids today who would rather stay in their bedrooms than go out and about locally.

Even the sixth form college commute has become an issue, one of my sons best mates was taken off a bus at knife point recently and a week later my son was "relieved" of his mobile phone whilst commuting through the town centre from college.

The OP hit the nail on the head with more than one take on the fact that "this is not life", at least it should not be. Something needs to change...

[islandgun]

GRR . Personally i abhor the idea of the death penalty and have never believed it to be a deterrent to murder, [although perhaps a long term fix from murdering again] however like most I dont see any reason why these freaks should ever walk out in the sunshine again..

Raja its difficult for me to even imagine how this effects your day to day life. and makes any opinion i might have obsolete TBH

[Raja Clavata]

51 minutes ago, islandgun said:

GRR . Personally i abhor the idea of the death penalty and have never believed it to be a deterrent to murder, [although perhaps a long term fix from murdering again] however like most I dont see any reason why these freaks should ever walk out in the sunshine again..

Raja its difficult for me to even imagine how this effects your day to day life. and makes any opinion i might have obsolete TBH

Just trying to provide a some local context and perspective, I must admit it's like a parallel universe compared to the visions I had when we brought our two kids into this world. I have lived in this area all my life but would happily move away / abroad but the other half won't have any of it.

This isn't about poverty, we live in an affluent enough area, OK there are some areas locally which are not as "nice" and some would have you believe that the bad kids come from outside the decent areas but I know from personal experience that's another generalisation. I don't think there's anything particular special with respect to the issues we are facing locally.

[islandgun]

33 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

Just trying to provide a some local context and perspective, I must admit it's like a parallel universe compared to the visions I had when we brought our two kids into this world. I have lived in this area all my life but would happily move away / abroad but the other half won't have any of it.

This isn't about poverty, we live in an affluent enough area, OK there are some areas locally which are not as "nice" and some would have you believe that the bad kids come from outside the decent areas but I know from personal experience that's another generalisation. I don't think there's anything particular special with respect to the issues we are facing locally.

Its quite special to me as i live in a fairly remote place. if one of my kids was robbed we would know the thief, his parents and their parents..😉

[Raja Clavata]

7 minutes ago, islandgun said:

Its quite special to me as i live in a fairly remote place. if one of my kids was robbed we would know the thief, his parents and their parents..😉

Yes, I appreciate that, and a part of me craves a similar scenario but it's not really practical for us given where my kids are at in life and my "career". 

If I knew who'd robbed my lad they'd be accompanying me on trip to Epping Forest for a lesson on what it feels like to really fear for your own well being...

[TIGHTCHOKE]

This country has tried the soft liberal approach and failed miserably, America has supposedly tried the harder approach and failed.

 

 

String a few up and see if that is a deterrent!

[Penelope]

16 hours ago, oowee said:

And there in you confirm part of the point I am making. These kids often do not have the boundaries in place the guidance required to get the most out of them. We have simple choices. Hit them with a hammer and keep doing it time and time again like some old record or take a positive approach to tackling the causes. 

 

So answer the question. Why did they make that choice? 

The easy life with easy money, with a touch of gansta glamour and a bit of notoriety. Big mans, innit Bruv.

[Penelope]

11 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

Just trying to provide a some local context and perspective, I must admit it's like a parallel universe compared to the visions I had when we brought our two kids into this world. I have lived in this area all my life but would happily move away / abroad but the other half won't have any of it.

This isn't about poverty, we live in an affluent enough area, OK there are some areas locally which are not as "nice" and some would have you believe that the bad kids come from outside the decent areas but I know from personal experience that's another generalisation. I don't think there's anything particular special with respect to the issues we are facing locally.

Would you agree that the Harold Wood/Hill/Romford areas have deteriorated badly over the last 10 years or so? I'm originally from Chigwell/Hainault, it was a great area when I was a kid, but now it's a dump. All the local shops now have shutters on them, the local school (my old school), now has metal detectors.

To be blunt, the deterioration of my old home town coincided with the influx of, how can I put this, a different ethnic population, moving out from London.

[Raja Clavata]

24 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Would you agree that the Harold Wood/Hill/Romford areas have deteriorated badly over the last 10 years or so? I'm originally from Chigwell/Hainault, it was a great area when I was a kid, but now it's a dump. All the local shops now have shutters on them, the local school (my old school), now has metal detectors.

To be blunt, the deterioration of my old home town coincided with the influx of, how can I put this, a different ethnic population, moving out from London.

Generally, yes, I would agree. When I was in my early / late teens most of the local trouble makers were football hooligans and the dodgy council estates were well known, the people from there usually readily distinguishable and easily avoided.

This area has always suffered from what I felt were "Kray wannabees". As far as I can tell this covers the Canning Town lot (who have always been trouble) right through and beyond Brentwood. We live in a decent estate but increasingly seem surrounded by less favourable ones. I have no issue with the people of ethnicity moving into my estate and those that have seem to integrate well and behave. I can't talk from a first hand perspective about the less favourable estates as I tend to avoid them normally.

The bigger issue for me is not the classic ethnicities but those people from Eastern Europe, perhaps the two go hand in hand but for me they have contributed more significantly to the decline of the local area than other factors. With regards to people moving out of London, a lot of the Asians have jumped from Ilford to places like Emerson Park, Upminster and Brentwood.

For the record, the lads that jumped my son could be described as of ethnic background but those who took his mate off a bus at knifepoint the week before were white (believed to be from Dagenham / Barking).

A lot of this has to do with organised crime, county lines etc. but you don't need to look too far west to see it's purely and simply a postcode war.

[Penelope]

1 minute ago, Raja Clavata said:

Generally, yes, I would agree. When I was in my early / late teens most of the local trouble makers were football hooligans and the dodgy council estates were well known, the people from there usually readily distinguishable and easily avoided.

This area has always suffered from what I felt were "Kray wannabees". As far as I can tell this covers the Canning Town lot (who have always been trouble) right through and beyond Brentwood. We live in a decent estate but increasingly seem surrounded by less favourable ones. I have no issue with the people of ethnicity moving into my estate and those that have seem to integrate well and behave. I can't talk from a first hand perspective about the less favourable estates as I tend to avoid them normally.

The bigger issue for me is not the classic ethnicities but those people from Eastern Europe, perhaps the two go hand in hand but for me they have contributed more significantly to the decline of the local area than other factors. With regards to people moving out of London, a lot of the Asians have jumped from Ilford to places like Emerson Park, Upminster and Brentwood.

For the record, the lads that jumped my son could be described as of ethnic background but those who took his mate off a bus at knifepoint the week before were white (believed to be from Dagenham / Barking).

A lot of this has to do with organised crime, county lines etc. but you don't need to look too far west to see it's purely and simply a postcode war.

Agreed.

[Raja Clavata]

2 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Agreed.

So, you moved East but can't go much further in that direction. My brother is in Rayleigh but with two teenagers and that area is not without it's issues.

What's the answer?

[Penelope]

Just now, Raja Clavata said:

So, you moved East but can't go much further in that direction. My brother is in Rayleigh but with two teenagers and that area is not without it's issues.

What's the answer?

Moved a bit further west now, given recent events, just north of your brother's town.

I think most of the 'trouble' is due the the fact that it snows every Friday and Saturday night, and everything that, that entails.

[Rewulf]

3 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

What's the answer?

The harder hand. 

A bit like knocking scrotes of scooters has dramatically cut that type of crime, how about some massive sentences for being caught with, or using a knife in any violent way. 

And build some more prisons, in the Victorian style. 

[Raja Clavata]

44 minutes ago, Penelope said:

Moved a bit further west now, given recent events, just north of your brother's town.

I think most of the 'trouble' is due the the fact that it snows every Friday and Saturday night, and everything that, that entails.

I was born in Rayleigh hospital (flats now) and spent the first 9 months of my life in HullBridge (it was cheap) before we moved West to be closer to family. Family home in Havering was in a close that had only six houses and backed onto playing fields, then the back gardens of the houses on the main road where acquired and another six homes created opposite - mum still lives there. Seems to be the way these days.

49 minutes ago, Rewulf said:

The harder hand. 

A bit like knocking scrotes of scooters has dramatically cut that type of crime, how about some massive sentences for being caught with, or using a knife in any violent way. 

I'm with you on this.

And build some more prisons, in the Victorian style. 

But not this, the punishment alone needs to be a deterrent.

[Rewulf]

11 minutes ago, Raja Clavata said:

But not this, the punishment alone needs to be a deterrent

The punishment IS the deterrent. 

I've said it so many times, casual, and hard criminals alike, and even prospective criminals, waying up their options, are LAUGHING at our prison system. 

When that's the case, it's merely an inconvenience when they get caught and (sometimes) sentenced to it. 

Not a deterrent. 

[henry d]

16 hours ago, Scully said:

Ok. That's all well and good henry, and good for you for trying to help, but where does all this sit with the two who are the topic of this thread? They murdered a young girl at random for reasons best known to themselves, and being the big brave gangsta types they are, rather than expressing any regret or remorse, tried to pass the buck by blaming the other. They will be released at some point to carry on with their lives, and a second bite of the cherry. How does this sit with you? Do you find this acceptable? 

Whatever anyone feels about this is subjective and I feel that we should recognise what the family has said about this incident;

Quote

 [Jodie`s uncle] explained that Jodie's father, who was not present at court, had been informed of the sentences and was "very happy".

 

[grrclark]

2 hours ago, Rewulf said:

The punishment IS the deterrent. 

I've said it so many times, casual, and hard criminals alike, and even prospective criminals, waying up their options, are LAUGHING at our prison system. 

When that's the case, it's merely an inconvenience when they get caught and (sometimes) sentenced to it. 

Not a deterrent. 

The problem is that harsh punishment has been proven to not be an effective deterrent at all.

The end consequence of whatever harsh penal system you envisage is so far removed from the conscience of the thug about to perpetrate the act, quite simply if weighing up whether to stab someone to death the thought they might end up in a Victorian style prison until the end of their days is not part of their decision making process.

Active disruption however works very well, take as an example the CompStat policy in New York that has been hugely effective, albeit not without criticism.

Whilst it has evolved through differing phases one of the earlier adoptions was using mobile crime processing buses.  Basically anybody arrested for misdemeanour was processed very quickly by using repurposed buses as processing centres.

Go in the front door, processed by the police, charged, and then out the back door to a holding cell for trial.

Rapid service at the point of need, take away the resource constraint of moving the criminals to a central facility and just have lots of mobile facilities that go to hot spots.

The output of that process was the higher the arrest rate the lower the resulting rate of crime.

It also led to huge stop and search numbers that was very controversial, but they toughed it out, despite the cries of racism and persecution of minorities.

[oowee]

4 minutes ago, grrclark said:

The problem is that harsh punishment has been proven to not be an effective deterrent at all.

The end consequence of whatever harsh penal system you envisage is so far removed from the conscience of the thug about to perpetrate the act, quite simply if weighing up whether to stab someone to death the thought they might end up in a Victorian style prison until the end of their days is not part of their decision making process.

Active disruption however works very well, take as an example the CompStat policy in New York that has been hugely effective, albeit not without criticism.

Whilst it has evolved through differing phases one of the earlier adoptions was using mobile crime processing buses.  Basically anybody arrested for misdemeanour was processed very quickly by using repurposed buses as processing centres.

Go in the front door, processed by the police, charged, and then out the back door to a holding cell for trial.

Rapid service at the point of need, take away the resource constraint of moving the criminals to a central facility and just have lots of mobile facilities that go to hot spots.

The output of that process was the higher the arrest rate the lower the resulting rate of crime.

It also led to huge stop and search numbers that was very controversial, but they toughed it out, despite the cries of racism and persecution of minorities.

This is the sort of innovation we need. Thinking outside of the box and bringing new ideas to the problem. 

[grrclark]

6 minutes ago, oowee said:

This is the sort of innovation we need. Thinking outside of the box and bringing new ideas to the problem. 

Operation Crewcut is the current NY initiative for gang violence and it came from LA, essentially intelligence led predictive disruptive policing, now using lots of AI.

None of this will be news to the likes of the Met, but sadly we get caught up in baseless spin by the politicians instead of hearing about what works elsewhere and what that would mean for the UK.

We would have a backlash from civil liberties groups, but sometimes you just have to suck it up and go with the lesser of the evils.  Far too many kids are dying for us to be wringing our hands about offending sensitivities, but what we do must work and must be sustainable and must be proportionate.  That means ramping up when you need and dialling back when you can, something we have not been good at historically in the UK.

[henry d]

9 minutes ago, grrclark said:

....Active disruption however works very well, take as an example the CompStat policy in New York that has been hugely effective, albeit not without criticism...

 

4 minutes ago, oowee said:

This is the sort of innovation we need. Thinking outside of the box and bringing new ideas to the problem. 

Don`t forget Scotlands VRU and the 5 key aspects of their approach;

1. Gang membership
2. US initiatives (Boston`s operation ceasefire)
3. MAV, medics against violence
4. Education initiatives in schools to prevent peer pressure etc
5. Increase in opportunities (strange how that got there eh?)

4 hours ago, Raja Clavata said:

The bigger issue for me is not the classic ethnicities but those people from Eastern Europe, perhaps the two go hand in hand but for me they have contributed more significantly to the decline of the local area than other factors. With regards to people moving out of London, a lot of the Asians have jumped from Ilford to places like Emerson Park, Upminster and Brentwood.

There is some good work going on about how the gangs who are more violent/lawless tend to be those who have no loyalty to any forms of structure, state, police, social work etc but have total loyalty to gang/family etc they have lost the ability to trust statutory sectors for many reasons and local/historic gangs can`t cope as they work on different priciples

[grrclark]

Indeed Henry, it needs a multifaceted approach at many levels and the tactical policing element is only one of these facets.

I do think that in the UK we do tend to be a bit idealistic in how we approach things, we do sometimes need to double down on getting our hands dirty, but that in itself is not a structural fix.

A good example is the more direct approach to moped crimes in London, it has seen a significant decrease in crimes, but has also pushed things outwards a little to where there is less pressure.

Just now it is disruptive, but at risk of becoming simply dispersive without other integrated measures.

Edited November 20, 2019 by grrclark
Because i’m a numpty

[Scully]

On 20/11/2019 at 12:30, henry d said:

Whatever anyone feels about this is subjective and I feel that we should recognise what the family has said about this incident;

 

I haven't responded to this thread for some time as I've been awaiting replies to an email I sent, but it would appear they aren't forthcoming, despite the independent parole board website etc claiming they welcome feedback and inquiries! Perhaps it's only positive feedback they accept, or enquiries which don't question their policy of releasing convicted murderers back into society? Or indeed criticism? 

Anyhow, the above is a complete and utter cop out on your part henry, which doesn't surprise me at all. It is apparent you're of the same opinion as those who think it good policy to release convicted killers back into society, a policy which has led to other people being killed or murdered, and will undoubtedly continue to do so until empty headed do gooders are made accountable or there is a change in policy. Who are these faceless ( for obvious reasons ) parole board people? 

During the ten years between 2001 and 2011 for example ( and there are many others )  29 convicted killers released back into society, killed again. Acceptable henry? If not then why do parole boards continue with this policy?

The people at 10 South Colonade in London claim that they determine with great care if someone is safe to release, and that public safety is their number one priority. Really? Here's a suggestion....if the UK won't execute murderers then at least keep them locked up for the rest of their lives. That way there is zero risk of them killing another member of the public. Just a thought. 

It's not just some British snowflake policy either, a 77 year old convicted murderer was recently released from a US prison ( parole board officials claiming he was too old to offend again ) who then murdered a 49 (?) year old woman. You couldn't make it up could you! 

Anyhow, my inquiries continue.