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wymberley

Worst Case Scenario

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To avoid corrupting the "other thread".

I for one am not too happy about this exreme high bird carry-on for the same reasons as the majority of posters on that thread have identified. In which case, it is not an unrealistic stretch of the imagination to say that there's probably more than one bunch out there who will be 'horrified' and even more determined to get our sport curtailed if not stopped altogether.

Now, it might just transpire that there's enough money/power/influence at the top to prevent a total loss, but you can bet your bottom dollar that there will need to be a compromise and we will in all likelyhood lose control of what we do and be regulated in doing it provided we escape total oblivion that is. It is perfectly conceivable that we could be required to accept, say, the German system and we'll need to acquire a UK version of the 'Jagdschein'. Justifiably, perhaps, BASC Membership  will not be too keen to object to this.

As I can not see vermin control by shooting being totally stopped then all is well if the Jagdschein is sufficient to keep game shooting in play, but if it is not and the only shooters left in existence are the Jagdschein holding vermin controllers, can you imagine the result?

Therefore, to avoid any chance of the above occurring (but I do still think something is bound to to whatever degree), I really think that our organisations need to get together and jointly read us the "riot act" purely for our own benefit.

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You make an interesting point, unfortunately I think those few selfish "extreme" pheasant shooters will take no notice and will probably see our sport come to its demise.

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As a wildfowler and vermin shooter, mainly  if the slightest rumble starts they will be the first to shout.........WE all need to stick together,   but don't recall other areas running to help fowlers. 

 

Just a thought 

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I think shooters are enough of a fractured group as it is, and have had enough quite frankly of people telling me what I should and shouldn’t do. We’re all killing stuff for entertainment, and while we’re doing that I seriously don’t think shooters are in any position to tell other shooters what they should or shouldn’t be doing. 

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29 minutes ago, Scully said:

I think shooters are enough of a fractured group as it is, and have had enough quite frankly of people telling me what I should and shouldn’t do. We’re all killing stuff for entertainment, and while we’re doing that I seriously don’t think shooters are in any position to tell other shooters what they should or shouldn’t be doing. 

“Like”

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The problem is personal opinion can't be used to dictate to others on their legal actions. I don't agree with the 80 yard pheasants but is it fair for me to demand that to stop? I can show my disagreement by not partaking and ensuring all my shots are within reason, and also to voice my concerns if asked, but should I demand that it be banned? What if another shooter dislikes me shooting foxes. Are they within their rights to demand that this stops? It's all relative.

However I strongly believe that the shooting community should self police themselves. By always and only being seen to act within the law. And to show compassion to anything they kill. 

Shooting is not going to thrive in years to come but I agree that we should look at how best to present ourselves and the sport to promote it the best way we can. Ultimately, it wont change anything but it may increase its longevity before it's eventual demise. We can't bury our heads in the sand and not care

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Shooters are their own worst enemies they could not unite and never will.

As individuals they are not prepared to be told, even if its for their own good.

At club level things can work for good with the right calibre of leadership at the helm.

  The high shooting topic if in most wild fowling clubs would instantly be stamped out. Not saying some wildfowlers don’t get carried away with it all on occasion but ignoring the quiet words soon leads to sterner action being taken when offending persists.

On the freeshore its not quite the same some do not like any criticism from other fowlers, and in some cases i have witnessed i understand why.

  Sometimes the old range estimation aspect throws up trouble where there isn’t any, and throw enough crud about and some of it will stick, and shooters general are good at string the pot often to suit personal agendas.

A very vocal proponent for high pheasant shooting on the other thread has historically never been scared to stir that pot vigorously from a very different angle indeed when it suits his own agenda but there you go this is shooters all over.

I do think in the main shooters are great people, but not all are as unbiased as they should perhaps be, and the peer group they are currently mixing with can cloud their judgement .

 I think social media has not helped in the bigger scheme of things, but thats at one with every aspect of modern life to some extent.

  I think all we can do is try and be vigilant, be aware and spot if we can any erant behaviour do not be afraid to stand up and be counted, even if its unpopular, i regret not standing up once in a situation i should really have added more evidence to, but gave the benefit of the doubt, at the time, and i rue the day i did that to this day.

You can not sit on the fence in shooting & politics and shooting go hand in hand if you want them to or not its the business we are in.

One thing is for sure without moderate thinking and less selfishness we will have a worse time of it than we can ever imagine the way things are shapping up right now. Whatever house in shooting you are in, get that house in order by getting involved contribute what you can and try and spread yourselves liberally, helping in any way you can.

One thing we all must do is set an example, every body has a conscience like advising a small child if it feels wrong it probably is, and if you leave a place feeling ashamed of what went on there then your on the right track. Doing something just because you can these days in shooting is not always good in the broader picture.

Radical behaviour upsets other shooters divides and alienates people, keep things straightforward be flexible open to new ideas, we have to adapt to survive.

One other thing is now contraversial and an imovable object to some. BASC bashing, love them of hate them its really not that important nor are your single views. Sit back look at the bigger picture BASC are not perhaps perfect, but they are the best we have and without them we wont survive, if your not happy with any aspect approach them, bashing them here or anywhere is not productive, and could be harmful to us all in the long run.

We have many foes out there looking to destroy us by any way they can. Getting behind our biggest shooting organisation and encouraging others to do the same can do no harm in fact probably more good.

 

 

 

 

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Just in case anyone gets the wrong idea as I mentioned BASC and now bashing that organisation has been mentioned. It could quite easily - if it already hasn't - get to the point where someone with a genuine comment or criticism to make is put off by the thought of getting so accused of the crime that he keeps quiet when speaking out could well have been to everyone's advantage. 

If push comes to shove and we end up with the need for the said 'Jagdschein' then BASC is the foremost organisation in the country to implement the necessary syllabus, etc,etc as they've already done something similar back along as mentioned towards the end of "that thread". Consequently the Association's Membership should - and rightly so - benefit from this.

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There are other organisations out there totally capable of implementing a syllabus, and which I would much rather pay my money to. BASC have had their chance as far as I'm concerned. It's worth bearing in mind BASC once tried to tell another branch of shooters what they should and shouldn't do, the result of which was the NGO. Just a thought. 

Those who don't like shooting 'extreme' birds have the choice not to do it, but while we're killing stuff for entertainment, I believe not a single one of us is in any position to criticise those who choose to do it.   If anyone on here believes that stopping shooting extreme birds is in any way going to endear us to those whom oppose us, then you're living in cloud cuckoo land. 

Can anyone, incidentally, tell me what the difference is between an extreme bird day and a high bird day? 

12 minutes ago, islandgun said:

I think incinerating or burying unwanted Pheasants is a bigger threat than range..

Again, I'd agree, but can you provide a link or evidence of any shoots which have been doing this? I don't mean some blurry pictures and a spurious claim, but definitive evidence. 

I'm off to the pub to see a man about a high bird syndicate.....seriously. Behave yourselves. 🙂

Edited by Scully

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7 minutes ago, Scully said:

 

Again, I'd agree, but can you provide a link or evidence of any shoots which have been doing this? I don't mean some blurry pictures and a spurious claim, but definitive evidence. 

I'm off to the pub to see a man about a high bird syndicate.....seriously. Behave yourselves. 🙂

Have one for me .. I have absolutely no proof just earlier post's when people have mentioned not being able to sell on game especially end of season and the game being disposed of..[perhaps in-edible birds shot at close range,🙄]    antis dont need proof !  ... spurious claims are proof enough

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Last season I was in North Lincolnshire on a days shooting on a very well organsied shoot.  As we walked back from one drive I saw two brace of pheasants in the ditch and on looking they where actually braced up and had been there some time.  Now some irresponsible gun had thrown them there on his way home, only answer in my view. Too embarrased to say no I can't use them and failed to offer them to the beaters.  I am more than happy to take an extra brace or two and actually order 20 pcks from my local shoot oven ready because it is a very cheap meal.  I am sorry to say it but can see the gun that refuses to take at least one brace has come into the shooting real game side of things from clay shooting and there is little doubt that the mind set of high bird shooters is not one of harvesting something to take home, but using it as a target to boost their egos.  Perhaps the answer is to bring out a law to make all guns shoot a 410, problem solved.

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38 minutes ago, islandgun said:

I think incinerating or burying unwanted Pheasants is a bigger threat than range..

Well some prominent in our number have genuinely tried to utilise these birds to good effect to benefit the needy in society whilst benefiting too to some extent yet effectively donating £40 000 , only to be dead legend by those who really should be unbiased but clearly are not and clearly go about furthering their own agendas completely unchecked by their employers and  be rude to boot.

 

Edited by lancer425

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1 hour ago, wymberley said:

The difference? £500.

Well there you go. I beat on a ‘high’ bird shoot, although I’m sure some birds would be deemed extreme. Do the guns  ‘ have a go’ ? Of course they do. 🙂

1 hour ago, islandgun said:

Have one for me .. I have absolutely no proof just earlier post's when people have mentioned not being able to sell on game especially end of season and the game being disposed of..[perhaps in-edible birds shot at close range,🙄]    antis dont need proof !  ... spurious claims are proof enough

I appreciate your honesty, and I’d agree with that last sentiment. 

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I for one don't get the chance to shoot at many 60 - 80 yard birds and if one flew past me I would 100% have a go at it but, having been on many game shoots where birds are average heights and seen the amount of birds that do get pricked, only to sail on somewhere else, I would say none of us are really more ethical than the others here. Running on percentages, far more people have access to the average shoots than the high bird shoots and so I would assume more birds will get pricked on the average shoots. Yes we have pickers up and should make best endeavours to gather up anything wounded but the practicality of first recognising a pricked bird (which seems difficult for many guns), then marking it (taking your eye of the rest of the drive to watch its point of fall, if it does fall within view), then getting a dog on it (normally when the drive is done and no one is going half a mile down a valley to pick a 'maybe pricked' bird), doing this for every pricked bird you think you have shot etc, etc, is something I will bet that the majority of guns do not do on any given shoot day, whether its an average or extreme shoot. Then the pickers up are to an extent time limited because the show must go on and there is another drive to be done where it all starts again. 

We are all in the same boat here to anti-shooters, the argument will always be the same to them and is that we shoot game for fun. We cannot get away from that if we enjoy it and if you don't, why do it? As has been said above, the shooting world is very fragmented already without dividing game shooting with a yard stick.  

There are plenty of shooters I know that are really rubbish unless the bird is within 25 yards and that's on a calm day. An extreme bird to them is 40 yards. Are they to be chastised for shooting at those birds? Its all relative. If you have the ability to bring them down consistently then crack on. The ethics are the same.

I haven't read all of the comments on the previous thread as there are many, but have any of the naysayers to extreme shooting actually witnessed first hand one of these shoots to give a first hand account of bad practice, 'hundreds' of pricked birds, anything performed less morally / ethically than an average bird shoot?

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I have said this about 5 times now on this thread. 50 to 60 if you got everything in place its still a long way and i think many of the claimed 80 yarders are actually 60s its that basic. Bad range estimation is at the back of most of these 80 yard claims the rest are just flukes.  the science is not there in the guns employed and the ammunition used to support any other conclusion regardless of an individuals wing shooting abilities. 

 

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Things like this help eradicate over estimation, especially when they are flighting A-B over a gorge/valley with equal heights either side.

Lancer for all your constant whining about patterns, penetration ballistics etc etc

Would you bare your Ar$E at 80 yds and let someone shoot it with 34/4s?

Considering I have had my head bloodied twice this season by falling shot this should be an interesting answer to compound his confidence in his factual basis.

I can be absolutely sure you would require a hospital visit to remove embedded shot from your ar$e.

If you don't agree accept the challenge!

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1 hour ago, Perazzishot said:

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Things like this help eradicate over estimation, especially when they are flighting A-B over a gorge/valley with equal heights either side.

Lancer for all your constant whining about patterns, penetration ballistics etc etc

Would you bare your Ar$E at 80 yds and let someone shoot it with 34/4s?

Considering I have had my head bloodied twice this season by falling shot this should be an interesting answer to compound his confidence in his factual basis.

I can be absolutely sure you would require a hospital visit to remove embedded shot from your ar$e.

If you don't agree accept the challenge!

That i one silly post, As for AR*Es you need to stop being one get real and stop talking out of yours. 

Get some patterns up for this modern ammo your using and some gun details to at least try and bolster up your futile claims. 80yards i say pah! 99 yards Pah! Pah! and some!.  Winging fluking & overestimation of range is what is going on here,. your 80 yard birds are 50/60 tops more likeley half your 80 claimed yards. Then i agree with what you and your cohorts are saying . but 80 Real yards . PAH!

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2 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

That i one silly post, As for AR*Es you need to stop being one get real and stop talking out of yours. 

Get some patterns up for this modern ammo your using and some gun details to at least try and bolster up your futile claims. 80yards i say pah! 99 yards Pah! Pah! and some!.  Winging fluking & overestimation of range is what is going on here,. your 80 yard birds are 50/60 tops more likeley half your 80 claimed yards. Then i agree with what you and your cohorts are saying . but 80 Real yards . PAH!

You on drugs?

Will you or will you not bare your ar$e at 80yds if you are so convinced that lead shot has no pattern or penetration at 80yds. Come on big man put your ar$e where your mouth is!!!

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No 4 shot would have about 1ftlb at 80 yards but no pattern. I'm not sure you under stand that. Or you'd see how silly your post is. 

You may well hit him with a pellet but it won't be sufficient to stop him catching up with you in short order. A bit like a winged pheasant carrying on to die elsewhere. 

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14 minutes ago, Perazzishot said:

You on drugs?

Will you or will you not bare your ar$e at 80yds if you are so convinced that lead shot has no pattern or penetration at 80yds. Come on big man put your ar$e where your mouth is!!!

 

You are making a fool of yourself man .

1 minute ago, GingerCat said:

No 4 shot would have about 1ftlb at 80 yards but no pattern. I'm not sure you under stand that. Or you'd see how silly your post is. 

You may well hit him with a pellet but it won't be sufficient to stop him catching up with you in short order. A bit like a winged pheasant carrying on to die elsewhere. 

 GC  best not to  indulge this individual, he is not to put too fine a point on it. CLUELESS!

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19 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

 

You are making a fool of yourself man .

 GC  best not to  indulge this individual, he is not to put too fine a point on it. CLUELESS!

Answer the question if you are so c0ck sure, will you bare your ar$e at at 80yds to 34/4s?

I'm beginning to think you don't believe your own paper stats and running scared!

 

Lets go for a R/L Ginger and you can bare yours too!

Neither of you will do it. Fact!

 

Good Night

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Grow up man and stop being such a fool. Offering to shoot someone is not the behaviour of a responsible gun owner is it? 

I was going to say I hope you show game birds more respect but evidently you don't. 

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