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Lloyd90

Removable magazine plugs.

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What is the score with removable magazine plugs on semi auto's and pumps? 

 

Interesting discussion on FB at the moment, I have thought that they would not be legal, as the fact is that the magazine should not be able to hold more than 2 carts. 

I would of thought that the restriction on this would need to be more fixed, not just a plug that you can remove with the twist of a screw driver etc. 

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As I understand it, Section 2 S/A and P/A shotguns must by law have the magazine capacity permanently restricted, in such a way (for example crimping the magazine tube) that they cannot have their capacity increased.

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9 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

As I understand it, Section 2 S/A and P/A shotguns must by law have the magazine capacity permanently restricted, in such a way (for example crimping the magazine tube) that they cannot have their capacity increased.

That's exactly what mine has.

No plug is in it, and it can not fit more than 2 carts. 

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13 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

What is the score with removable magazine plugs on semi auto's and pumps? 

 

Interesting discussion on FB at the moment, I have thought that they would not be legal, as the fact is that the magazine should not be able to hold more than 2 carts. 

I would of thought that the restriction on this would need to be more fixed, not just a plug that you can remove with the twist of a screw driver etc. 

Problem with FB is you dont know who or from which country you are talking with . I was in discussion with a man I thought was from the US but turns out he was from a Mediterranean Island .

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My understanding of the use of magazine plugs (or duck plugs as referred to in the US) is to temporarily restrict the magazine capacity of a tube fed self-loading or pump action shotgun so as to comply with local or territorial hunting restrictions etc in those areas where the regular licencing and ownership of shotguns allows for larger, unrestricted capacity, predominantly in the USA but possibly elsewhere too. The UK has a two tier licencing system for shotguns, a permanent (crimped tube) restriction limiting capacity to 3 rounds total (Section 2) and unlimited capacity (as a firearm) on the much more specific (to firearms held) Section 1 licence. 

Some clay clubs allow S1 shotguns to be used (either with or without a magazine plug) but it is always advisable to ask first as some clubs do not permit this. For wildfowling, I believe, and am sure will be corrected if wrong, that S1 with or without restriction is not allowed. For rough shooting etc, and its just a guess, I would think that you would need the landowners permission to use a Section 1 shotgun (firearm) on his or her land.

Most S1 shotguns in the UK are held for Practical Shotgun competition shooting and require club membership to qualify for possession of said firearm

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9 minutes ago, impala59 said:

My understanding of the use of magazine plugs (or duck plugs as referred to in the US) is to temporarily restrict the magazine capacity of a tube fed self-loading or pump action shotgun so as to comply with local or territorial hunting restrictions etc in those areas where the regular licencing and ownership of shotguns allows for larger, unrestricted capacity, predominantly in the USA but possibly elsewhere too. The UK has a two tier licencing system for shotguns, a permanent (crimped tube) restriction limiting capacity to 3 rounds total (Section 2) and unlimited capacity (as a firearm) on the much more specific (to firearms held) Section 1 licence. 

Some clay clubs allow S1 shotguns to be used (either with or without a magazine plug) but it is always advisable to ask first as some clubs do not permit this. For wildfowling, I believe, and am sure will be corrected if wrong, that S1 with or without restriction is not allowed. For rough shooting etc, and its just a guess, I would think that you would need the landowners permission to use a Section 1 shotgun (firearm) on his or her land.

Most S1 shotguns in the UK are held for Practical Shotgun competition shooting and require club membership to qualify for possession of said firearm

My S1 (8 shot) 12 gauge is used for crop protection. Purchased as a five shot, I purchased an extension tube and longer spring to make it an eight shot (7+1) I'm thinking of extending it further to a ten shot, as I'm going to participate in Practical Shotgun next year. OR, I can just apply for another S1 to do this.:)

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23 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

What is the score with removable magazine plugs on semi auto's and pumps? 

 

Interesting discussion on FB at the moment, I have thought that they would not be legal, as the fact is that the magazine should not be able to hold more than 2 carts. 

I would of thought that the restriction on this would need to be more fixed, not just a plug that you can remove with the twist of a screw driver etc. 

Surely the penalty lies in the removal of said plug, Honesty on complying with licence conditions?

Edited by old man

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If you have a 3 and a half inch chamber you can get 3 shorter cartridges in the tube anyway......just don't.

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I was under the impression the only legit’ way to restrict a S1 mag’ tube was by submission to a proof house to have the tube crimped and cut. Two former S1 pumps I owned were bought complete with proof house certificates of the work having been done. 

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Mag restrictions were in in the states from the late 60s early 70s mostly in Public land for waterfowl, there were exceptions certain states certain situations. notably snow geese as an example which now i think can use mag extentions for snows in some states.

The first we saw restricted magazines was here after the wildflife and countryside act 1981 where waterfowl and game had to be with a gun incapable of loading more than two in the magazine. guns at that time and before did come with wooden plugs and had to be fitted to comply to the act.

After RYAN shotguns got hit, mag restrictions came in june of that year they had to extend the deadline for a month or so to alow guns to be disposed of and help with the prof house cues.

Think it was about three months grace not much more.

RFDs were sent literature as to how to restrict mags.

 Some guns were unrestrictable like the winchester 1911 widowmaker auto and others.

 Most with tube mags were crimped and mags haraldited into recievers so good mag folowers were essential, as it was about the only thing you could not get out change easy on most guns.

You could fit a restrictor slieve and some did. this was all guns prior to the law coming in, these guns needed the prof house certificate with them, stil do afaik these certs stayed with the gun when you sold it.

At some point 1990 ish there was a cut off point when all new autos pumps etc were mag restricted from new , them the stamp cross swards etc were not needed anymore, older guns that got imported or surfaced from the trade unrestricted were and are still being proofed to this day. but not new guns.

These need a restriction but not necessarily up to proof house specs.and certainly not stamped with the cross swards on the base of the tub.

Most crimp tub as ussual but that is it with new guns.

I think mag plugs still come with many new guns, and i supose you could use the plug to restrict a section 1 for waterfow game etc but not sure if the law will let you use one in such a way re your FAC. In reality this would comply with wildlife and countryside act 1981 and make sense to save a section 1 owner from needing a second auto for wildfowl and game, but this is probably too sensible for most police forces to consider but could be wrong  may be there is provision in the law to alow this scenario but i am not sure.

 

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3 hours ago, daveboy said:

If you have a 3 and a half inch chamber you can get 3 shorter cartridges in the tube anyway......just don't.

Or five in total if you ghost load one as well, whether short shells would cycle is another thing.

Never saw the point myself in more than three as if I miss with three shots anymore wouldn't hit it.

Edited by figgy

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Lloydy, it basically has to be some form of permanent restriction so if you use a plug you have to seal the end of the magazine tube. For a lot of Semi auto and pump designs, this makes taking the barrel off a pain (Notably not the Maxus with the different forend latch).

You have to be a bit careful of some guns imported around 2010 that just had a "duck plug" inserted into the magazine tube (This is essentially a rod that stops the follower going further back and limiting the number of cartridges)

I know of 2 pumps that were on S2 certs after going through multiple RFDs that had removable plugs and therefore were actually S1.

14 hours ago, old man said:

Surely the penalty lies in the removal of said plug, Honesty on complying with licence conditions?

 

No, and please be careful with this. As I understand it, the act relies on what you are in possession of and it can be argued that a temporary plug is not a permanent restriction to limit the capacity to 2 +1. Therefore, you are in possession of an S1 firearm without the correct certification and could be in quite serious legal trouble.

(I wish is was the honesty approach but legally I think that's very unsafe to assume that will float)

Scrummy

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3 hours ago, Scrumbag said:

Lloydy, it basically has to be some form of permanent restriction so if you use a plug you have to seal the end of the magazine tube. For a lot of Semi auto and pump designs, this makes taking the barrel off a pain (Notably not the Maxus with the different forend latch).

You have to be a bit careful of some guns imported around 2010 that just had a "duck plug" inserted into the magazine tube (This is essentially a rod that stops the follower going further back and limiting the number of cartridges)

I know of 2 pumps that were on S2 certs after going through multiple RFDs that had removable plugs and therefore were actually S1.

 

No, and please be careful with this. As I understand it, the act relies on what you are in possession of and it can be argued that a temporary plug is not a permanent restriction to limit the capacity to 2 +1. Therefore, you are in possession of an S1 firearm without the correct certification and could be in quite serious legal trouble.

(I wish is was the honesty approach but legally I think that's very unsafe to assume that will float)

Scrummy

Need a gunsmith or RFD here?

Edited by old man

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I can’t believe this is still being debated! Putting a temporary plug in a S1 shotgun magazine tube does not make it a S2 shotgun. It’s that simple. 

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4 hours ago, Scully said:

I can’t believe this is still being debated! Putting a temporary plug in a S1 shotgun magazine tube does not make it a S2 shotgun. It’s that simple. 

Well said sir! I worries me that people might well believe they are in the clear and come a cropper....

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6 hours ago, Scully said:

I can’t believe this is still being debated! Putting a temporary plug in a S1 shotgun magazine tube does not make it a S2 shotgun. It’s that simple. 

Agreed.

Sorry , my mistake, I assumed the other way around. The removal of a section 2 plug to make a section 1. Hence the honesty thing.

It's an age thingy 🙃.

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22 minutes ago, old man said:

Agreed.

Sorry , my mistake, I assumed the other way around. The removal of a section 2 plug to make a section 1. Hence the honesty thing.

It's an age thingy 🙃.

👍😀No need to be sorry, I wasn’t having a pop at anyone; it’s just the logical explanation really. 

Edited by Scully

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I think there are some anomaly’s around still, I bought a while back an S2 savage that was a bit needy, non functioning and had been taken in by a gunsmith friend as PX. As is my normal practice, I took it down to component level and found that the mag tube had been put in backwards which was preventing proper cycling, it was held in place by a ramped “one way “ screw which though difficult to remove was not impossible. Focused on cleaning and repairing, it was only when I had it all back together that I realised it contravened the S2 ruling. The tube was crimped and proofed as such but was not permanently fixed to the receiver. A quick call to my pal and it was returned to have the screw welded in place as the tube could not be fixed to the receiver. He sold it on and I understand that the chap who bought it was very happy with his purchase. I wonder how many others are out there that could technically be illegally held due to inefficient methods of compliance or lazy proofing?

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Oh I think you are definitely right there are quite a few "anomalies" kicking around.

It just worries me that if you have one of these "anomalies" it gives our fuzzy friends room to give you a hard time (I'm not saying all by any means, just if you get someone who has decided to be awkward). And we all like having our certificates and we don't like prison time.

I found out about an interesting "Official" anomaly the other day.

Winchester Model 12 pumps. They come apart differently to most pumps in that the magazine tube comes off with the barrel assembly rather than remaining with the receiver.

KZgiRos.jpg

According to an RFD I spoke to, the London Proof house requires the magazine tube be crimped and permanently attached to the receiver, meaning you can't take it down. The Birmingham proof House just requires the magazine to be crimped and you can still take it down as intended. So, there's even some "wiggle" in official circles it seems.

ATB,

Scrummy

 

 

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My supernova mag is crimped but also had a plastic rod in it. I was wondering why i could not get two 3 1/2 shells in it so took the clip at the end of the mag tube out & out popped the rod.

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4 hours ago, Scrumbag said:

Oh I think you are definitely right there are quite a few "anomalies" kicking around.

It just worries me that if you have one of these "anomalies" it gives our fuzzy friends room to give you a hard time (I'm not saying all by any means, just if you get someone who has decided to be awkward). And we all like having our certificates and we don't like prison time.

I found out about an interesting "Official" anomaly the other day.

Winchester Model 12 pumps. They come apart differently to most pumps in that the magazine tube comes off with the barrel assembly rather than remaining with the receiver.

KZgiRos.jpg

According to an RFD I spoke to, the London Proof house requires the magazine tube be crimped and permanently attached to the receiver, meaning you can't take it down. The Birmingham proof House just requires the magazine to be crimped and you can still take it down as intended. So, there's even some "wiggle" in official circles it seems.

ATB,

Scrummy

 

 

Quite. Both my Model 12's were S1 with full takedown capabilities. I assumed all those without this capability ( in the UK ) had been converted to S2. Just another example of the UK's illogical firearms legislation. Everyday's a school day.

 

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3 hours ago, Scully said:

Quite. Both my Model 12's were S1 with full takedown capabilities. I assumed all those without this capability ( in the UK ) had been converted to S2. Just another example of the UK's illogical firearms legislation. Everyday's a school day.

 

My RFD friends always use Birmingham proof house over London despite being ‘down south’

Says it all really

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On 27/11/2019 at 13:48, Scully said:

I can’t believe this is still being debated! Putting a temporary plug in a S1 shotgun magazine tube does not make it a S2 shotgun. It’s that simple. 

 

Thats what I said! 

 

Yet some bloke on Facebook was going mental on me for saying what you have said, saying how he has a browning 12 and 10 Bore that both have plugs and shouting that a company as big as browning wouldn’t sell guns that weren’t legal in the U.K. 

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9 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

Thats what I said! 

 

Yet some bloke on Facebook was going mental on me for saying what you have said, saying how he has a browning 12 and 10 Bore that both have plugs and shouting that a company as big as browning wouldn’t sell guns that weren’t legal in the U.K. 

Most autos and pumps made in the states have a mag’ capacity of at least five ( because there aren’t as many illogical bed wetters over there 🙂 ) so are S1 ( by UK legislation ) on importation to the UK, where some are sent for crimping, I’m led to believe , making them S2. Regardless of what your mate believes of Browning, he is in possession of S1 shotguns if the mag’ tubes are removable whereby making it possible to shove more than two in there. 
It really  is that simple; whether they’re on his SGC or FAC, they are S1 if he’s getting more than two in there. 

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10 hours ago, Lloyd90 said:

 

Thats what I said! 

 

Yet some bloke on Facebook was going mental on me for saying what you have said, saying how he has a browning 12 and 10 Bore that both have plugs and shouting that a company as big as browning wouldn’t sell guns that weren’t legal in the U.K. 

Oh there was a problem, not just limited to him.

Ask @Kalahari about what happened with his Browning BPS. Had to send it back to Browning for correction and reproofing I understand...

 

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