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cookoff013

Tungsten shot

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8 hours ago, motty said:

I find calculations can potentially be way off. For example, with your earlier calculation of lead 9s, I have recently routinely crumpled pigeons at 35-40 yards with an ounce of number 9s (lead). Your calculations would suggest that this simply cannot be possible.

These dense, small tss pellets seem to pack far more of a punch than would ever seem logical.

No9 Lead through a decent clay cartridge (1400ft/sec MV) has  0.75ftlbs at 30 yards but still has 1inch penetration.

At 40 yards this drops to 0.53ftlbs for energy but only to 0.74 inch penetration.

This is  adequate for wing/neck/spine shots on a  bird such as a pigeon/dove and smaller etc but may struggle getting through breast to effect a lung/heart kill.

On a larger bird such as a pheasant (with a neck/spine/bones twice as thick) these would start to struggle past 25 yards (0.93ftlbs and 1.2inch penetration).

 

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9 hours ago, wymberley said:

Don't you find those figures somewhat excessive. What ballistic coefficients did you use?

The software has it all pre-programmed in.

 

SBC2 - Copy.jpg

SBC1 - Copy.jpg

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"The software has it all pre-programmed in."

Something funny somewhere.

AND I'VE FOUND IT AND IT'S DOWN TO ME. APOLOGIES ALL.

Figures have been corrected and will explain later.

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6 hours ago, Stonepark said:

No9 Lead through a decent clay cartridge (1400ft/sec MV) has  0.75ftlbs at 30 yards but still has 1inch penetration.

At 40 yards this drops to 0.53ftlbs for energy but only to 0.74 inch penetration.

This is  adequate for wing/neck/spine shots on a  bird such as a pigeon/dove and smaller etc but may struggle getting through breast to effect a lung/heart kill.

On a larger bird such as a pheasant (with a neck/spine/bones twice as thick) these would start to struggle past 25 yards (0.93ftlbs and 1.2inch penetration).

 

When it goes wrong it really does go wrong!

My programme agrees with the above figures (I wasn't giving Motty a range, just figures). Consequently, I couldn't understand the T18 discrepency particularly as I remembered that it wasn't the KPY that had the BC problem so had a look at my end thinking that you may well have got it right and I found the fault.

Namely, me.

I have 2 formulae for BCs. Sometime back I got in a muddle using one  which I sorted by using the other. So I did so again. Unfortunately, as the TSS is so far removed from the ballistic characteristics of lead or anything else close to it, in this case I should have used the other one. I have run the programme again using the revised BCs and have altered my figures to suit. We're now pretty much in agreement - certainly close enough for all practical purposes.

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34 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

Sometimes common sense isn't that common !

I think you're right. What little I did have is disappearing with the millions of brain cells I'm shedding daily. Just as well there's enough nous left to recognise a mistake when I make it.

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There is no getting away from the fact the TSS18 is impressive stuff, however how necessary is it? I have some 7's and 9's and to be honest I never shoot at high birds, and if we see geese around here they are never more than 30 yards up and steel is more than adequate. I had some 28 gram loads made and used them on a flight pond to try and the results were unedible birds. Now Eley and Gamebore are upping their eco and fibre wads in steel I see no real need for anything else. 

How many of us mere mortals can consistently kill at 75-90 yards anyway? 

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24 minutes ago, Diss4111 said:

There is no getting away from the fact the TSS18 is impressive stuff, however how necessary is it? I have some 7's and 9's and to be honest I never shoot at high birds, and if we see geese around here they are never more than 30 yards up and steel is more than adequate. I had some 28 gram loads made and used them on a flight pond to try and the results were unedible birds. Now Eley and Gamebore are upping their eco and fibre wads in steel I see no real need for anything else. 

How many of us mere mortals can consistently kill at 75-90 yards anyway? 

It is not to do just with range but for those who only shoot a few geese per year and/or or have the light weight 65mm game gun, 28g of TSS at low to moderate velocity and some choke with plastic wads is a 50 yard killer of geese, without the recoil, pressure and shock and awe of 36g steel in 76mm doing 1600ft/sec.

 

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2 hours ago, Diss4111 said:

There is no getting away from the fact the TSS18 is impressive stuff, however how necessary is it? I have some 7's and 9's and to be honest I never shoot at high birds, and if we see geese around here they are never more than 30 yards up and steel is more than adequate. I had some 28 gram loads made and used them on a flight pond to try and the results were unedible birds. Now Eley and Gamebore are upping their eco and fibre wads in steel I see no real need for anything else. 

How many of us mere mortals can consistently kill at 75-90 yards anyway? 

 

tss is impressive. 

doubt anyone intentionally go for 70-90 yard goose. but if they did with tungsten 18, they probably are on to a good start. 

the one thing i did state, about tss18 #9 and lead #1 / #2 being similar, is the the energy retention at x yards, i think i had a 40 yard number. either way, silly impressive.

i still have the old data for this back in the old days. it was super sabot, 1.5oz and about xx grains of longshot  1300fps 

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For those who are interested.... 20g No9 TSS out of a Briley Light Modified at 50 Yards doing 1200 at the muzzle from the 410.

 

Shot was slightly off centre on paper vertical axis which is 1m high by 1.2m wide.

 

 

DSC_1796.JPG

Edited by Stonepark

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7 hours ago, Stonepark said:

For those who are interested.... 20g No9 TSS out of a Briley Light Modified at 50 Yards doing 1200 at the muzzle from the 410.

 

Shot was slightly off centre on paper vertical axis which is 1m high by 1.2m wide.

 

 

DSC_1796.JPG

Great pattern that!

50yds from a .410 through 3/8ths choke you say. Interesting!

I would expect that to be challenged and not believed by the way!

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3 hours ago, roughshooter said:

It is tempting but you do need a good wad and a Mylar wrap.

i may have a little play.......

TPS wad cut down to shot level as original to long, with 2 over powder card undeneath.

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9 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

Great pattern that!

50yds from a .410 through 3/8ths choke you say. Interesting!

I would expect that to be challenged and not believed by the way!

Well, I'm a believer... This TSS product has major potential for those 410 users who've turned their backs on heavy, clunky twelve bore shotties albeit, at a price.

According to Clay & Game website, they're currently out of T18..

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10 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

Great pattern that!

50yds from a .410 through 3/8ths choke you say. Interesting!

I would expect that to be challenged and not believed by the way!

I think that it's probably fair to say that it's easier to believe a pattern that you've seen rather than one which you haven't.

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10 hours ago, Perazzishot said:

Great pattern that!

I would expect that to be challenged and not believed by the way!

Cheers, and probably not the best (i used the earliest loading, which was ok, but not the best finished as roll turn over /wad not quite as tight as i prefer).

Plenty of similar evidence on youtube, Federal even have a commercial loading in 410 in usa as well.

 

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So is there any market for ITM shot? Have a load of shells sitting the cupboard doing nothing or should I just use them?

 

 

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44 minutes ago, grahamch said:

So is there any market for ITM shot? Have a load of shells sitting the cupboard doing nothing or should I just use them?

 

 

I'd hang slack until there's more of an idea how they pattern. Have a look at Stonepark's photo. Underneath the paper there are - everything now ish - 4&1/2 squares of which the pattern covers 3. So at 1.2 metres for the paper the pattern covers 32" at worst. That's off the scale - although I imagine that as he knows what he's doing, the 1200 V0 would suggest that this may well have been his intention. With a better idea of what's what, it may be handy to harvest the shot and have some loads made up to do whatever you'd want them to do.

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3 hours ago, wymberley said:

I'd hang slack until there's more of an idea how they pattern. Have a look at Stonepark's photo. Underneath the paper there are - everything now ish - 4&1/2 squares of which the pattern covers 3. So at 1.2 metres for the paper the pattern covers 32" at worst. That's off the scale - although I imagine that as he knows what he's doing, the 1200 V0 would suggest that this may well have been his intention. With a better idea of what's what, it may be handy to harvest the shot and have some loads made up to do whatever you'd want them to do.

these are kent itm loads from 32g to 56g

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8 minutes ago, grahamch said:

these are kent itm loads from 32g to 56g

TSS these are not, but are still an attractive proposition. If you aren't going to use them you probably won't have much trouble moving them on if you don't fancy loading the shot into something that you would use. Have to confess I don't know about the monetary aspect of the last idea - may not be economic.

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8 hours ago, grahamch said:

So is there any market for ITM shot? Have a load of shells sitting the cupboard doing nothing or should I just use them?

 

 

Definitely a market for ITM as getting rarer and great in the big bores. I have a fair store in BB and 1’s. I also have one hundred 3” 42gm no 3 I might move on. I bought them for the shot but can use steel in my guns in that size.

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Someone somewhere mentioned beaters and rightly so it seems. The problem with penetration tables is that you never know what the author had in mind in as much as for field use several factors are variable dependent upon species and their associated threshold energy and any boundary layer which can affect the pellets' sectional density upon which the result depends.

This time of year the beaters are well wrapped up so simply looking at the vulnerable bit - the face - we can ignore any of these variables and just look at the figures for "soft target" gelatin with the pellet velocity as given and for 1" of penetration -  which would smart a bit.

For Lead:

UK 7 shot          111 yards

UK 5&1/2 shot 133 yards

UK 3 shot          175 yards

For TSS

UK 9 shot         186 yards

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