Actual difference between cartridges

[jbk]

20 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

JBK,

From reading your original post and subsequent additions, you have demonstrated you want to achieve consistancy. I would suggest leaving one gun or the other in the cabinet until you are happy with your shooting. I would also suggest as you apppear to be searching for, 1 cartridge that covers 99% of your shooting to a reasonable range.

12b is relatively easy, Gamebore Blue Diamond 28g 7.5 fibre clay cartridge will kill every clay and pigeon within 45 yards  and every pheasant within 40 yards with IC and 1/4 choke if you are on target, the cartidges are relatively soft to shoot, good speed, 3% antimony and sized as a UK No 7 (2.4mm) and not expensive.

The closest in 20b is Lyalvale Supreme Game, 28g No 7, however the offerings is even more skewed out of whack in 20b than 12b for a proper cartridge that is the optimum combination of pellet size, pellet number, pellet speed etc

I note your chokes are nominally 1/2 and 3/4, why? This minimises your pattern spread, meaning you are more likely to miss a bird or catch it with a flyer, resulting in an injured bird.

If you want to kill a crow clean at 60 yards, reliably (i.e. 99% of the time), you are going to need 1 7/8 (53g) No 5 through an Extra Full choke and even then you will be sparse on pellets.

With a normal load 32g or less, 45 yards is the reasonable maximium for any shotgun.

You should not be shooting at "flukey" birds, over 45 yards with a 20b there is no reason or justification as your 20b and carridge combnation is not up to it.

Thanks Stonepark for your detailed answer 🙌🏻

• yes consistency would be a nice to know.
• yes looking for as few cartridge types as possible, just for simplicy's sakes.
• you're right, I should and will put 12b away till I'm happy with my shooting.
• Re. cartridge choice, thank you and noted, as it happens I already have a slab of these but in 25gm #6, as well as a slab of Eley VIP 28gm #5s, I'll get through these with confidence then move to a smaller shot perhaps.
• chokes are 1/2 & 3/4 as I thought this'd be most appropriate considering the type of shooting I was doing. You think not? would you suggest 1/4 & 1/2 then?
• 60yrd crow was just an example. No real need to cover this kind of target. I'm quite sure I'd miss the thing anyway at this stage!
• Noted re. keep <45yds 👍🏼.

 

[London Best]

If you really want to clean kill crows at 60 yards, use a rifle on sitters. Generally, shotguns are not effective at that range.

[jbk]

2 minutes ago, London Best said:

If you really want to clean kill crows at 60 yards, use a rifle on sitters. Generally, shotguns are not effective at that range.

ha ha ha, indeed!

[London Best]

Just now, jbk said:

ha ha ha, indeed!

Not ha, ha! 
I was deadly serious.

[jbk]

6 minutes ago, jbk said:

Thanks Stonepark for your detailed answer 🙌🏻

• yes consistency would be a nice to know.
• yes looking for as few cartridge types as possible, just for simplicy's sakes.
• you're right, I should and will put 12b away till I'm happy with my shooting.
• Re. cartridge choice, thank you and noted, as it happens I already have a slab of these but in 25gm #6, as well as a slab of Eley VIP 28gm #5s, I'll get through these with confidence then move to a smaller shot perhaps.
• chokes are 1/2 & 3/4 as I thought this'd be most appropriate considering the type of shooting I was doing. You think not? would you suggest 1/4 & 1/2 then?
• 60yrd crow was just an example. No real need to cover this kind of target. I'm quite sure I'd miss the thing anyway at this stage!
• Noted re. keep <45yds 👍🏼

Oh and, I will get on a pattern plate. Looking to change my 20b o/u chokes out to 1/4 and 1/2 as I clean my guns later this afternoon after a day out yesterday.

Just now, London Best said:

Not ha, ha! 
I was deadly serious.

I know you were!

[jbk]

16 minutes ago, jbk said:

Thanks Stonepark for your detailed answer 🙌🏻

• yes consistency would be a nice to know.
• yes looking for as few cartridge types as possible, just for simplicy's sakes.
• you're right, I should and will put 12b away till I'm happy with my shooting.
• Re. cartridge choice, thank you and noted, as it happens I already have a slab of these but in 25gm #6, as well as a slab of Eley VIP 28gm #5s, I'll get through these with confidence then move to a smaller shot perhaps.
• chokes are 1/2 & 3/4 as I thought this'd be most appropriate considering the type of shooting I was doing. You think not? would you suggest 1/4 & 1/2 then?
• 60yrd crow was just an example. No real need to cover this kind of target. I'm quite sure I'd miss the thing anyway at this stage!
• Noted re. keep <45yds 👍🏼.

Yes, 3/4 & 1/2, too much eh?

[Farmboy91]

1 hour ago, jbk said:

ok of course so velocity = carried energy. So if you want to a clean crow kill at 60yrds aside from pointing it in the right direction a faster cart will help better.

ok so choke is irrelevant to pattern reliability, in terms of both the quality / brand of choke tubes and the degree of choke?

I really think that difference is negligible, clean kills are more about appropriate shot size and distance for the chosen quarry. I've never brought a cart because of its supposed speed and never will. As many have said before, it's pattern that kills, a fast cartridge doesn't necessarily equal a decent pattern.

[wymberley]

1 hour ago, jbk said:

Thanks Stonepark for your detailed answer 🙌🏻

• yes consistency would be a nice to know.
• yes looking for as few cartridge types as possible, just for simplicy's sakes.
• you're right, I should and will put 12b away till I'm happy with my shooting.
• Re. cartridge choice, thank you and noted, as it happens I already have a slab of these but in 25gm #6, as well as a slab of Eley VIP 28gm #5s, I'll get through these with confidence then move to a smaller shot perhaps.
• chokes are 1/2 & 3/4 as I thought this'd be most appropriate considering the type of shooting I was doing. You think not? would you suggest 1/4 & 1/2 then?
• 60yrd crow was just an example. No real need to cover this kind of target. I'm quite sure I'd miss the thing anyway at this stage!
• Noted re. keep <45yds 👍🏼.

 

1 hour ago, jbk said:

Thanks Stonepark for your detailed answer 🙌🏻

• yes consistency would be a nice to know.
• yes looking for as few cartridge types as possible, just for simplicy's sakes.
• you're right, I should and will put 12b away till I'm happy with my shooting.
• Re. cartridge choice, thank you and noted, as it happens I already have a slab of these but in 25gm #6, as well as a slab of Eley VIP 28gm #5s, I'll get through these with confidence then move to a smaller shot perhaps.
• chokes are 1/2 & 3/4 as I thought this'd be most appropriate considering the type of shooting I was doing. You think not? would you suggest 1/4 & 1/2 then?
• 60yrd crow was just an example. No real need to cover this kind of target. I'm quite sure I'd miss the thing anyway at this stage!
• Noted re. keep <45yds 👍🏼.

 

Two nice cartridges. Beacause of the weight of my 20b I use the Express but in 7s. If you think that a smaller shot size would be better for a given quarry, get some and keep these for when they're more appropriate. In that respect, re the Lang and if this is 2&1/2" then have a look at the Gamebore SuperGame High Bird if the gun is a keeper which you want to use but at the same time look after it but not spend a fortune provided, of course, they suit.

The degree of choke is down to what you prefer for your particular needs. Yep, nothing beats practical experience and some folk are not too interested in figures completely missing the point that figures can put you in the ballpark and dramatically cut down the faffing about time. In order to get a kill for a well aimed shot it is now recognised that an average pellet strike of 6 is necessary on many species to ensure the vitals are hit on every shot. The vulnerable area for a pigeon is 16 sq ins and for the hen pheasant 31 and the tables for shot pattern spread are readily available. On average the pellet densities for the central 20" effective area of a pattern are: TC = 20.3, Imp Cyl = 26.5, 1/4 = 29.9, 1/2 = 33.5, 3/4 = 37.3 and Full = 41.4. What can be immediately noticed is that the pellet distribution is not even throughout the proverbial 30"circle. As for all more usual ranges shot string can be ignored for all practical purposes it's easy to work out what might just be the answer to our needs. Let's for argument's sake say that 100 pellets are necessary and with 1 oz of 7s 1/4 choke will give us at 40 yards. Now this is where your need for what choke comes in. A quick second barrel shot because you missed with the first and it's going away will give c42 yards with 1/2. Or do you want to extend your range a little? 3/4 will give 45 yards. Choke does not really materially extend choke by much but it does give some advantage if appropriately chosen and then checked out practically in the field.

[Smokersmith]

The picture shows 1/2 and 1/4  .....

 

[wymberley]

26 minutes ago, Smokersmith said:

The picture shows 1/2 and 1/4  .....

 

Or  the gun has a bottom rib.

[Cawdor118]

2 hours ago, jbk said:

Yes, 3/4 & 1/2, too much eh?

Top is 1/4 

Bottom is 1/2 

I generally shoot bottom barrel first, so would also have the chokes the other way around. The further a bird is away, the more choke you need to keep the pattern together on the way to it. That's my theory. 

Edited January 12, 2020 by Cawdor118
more info.

[Stonepark]

5 hours ago, jbk said:

 However it does still leave me with the question of why pay ~£100/1000 more for a cartridge, other than for purely psychological reasons!?

 

It is not just pyschological, but also physical, generally an increase in price will (but not always) achieve the following for any given load i.e. 28g:-

Better quality hull (higher 'brass' and thicker walls reload better but as most cartridges are only fired once, not that important)

More consistant powder (less shot to shot variation)

Better quality wad (felt with over powder card instead of Diana type only)

Higher Antimony percentage in shot (harder shot withstands pressure better resulting in better patterns)

Produced on more modern and more accurate machine.

However, this does not add up to an extra £100 per thousand in most cases, probably £30, the rest being 'marketing'

 

There is also the issue that a No 7.5 (2.4mm) 3%SB 28g clay cartridge doing 1500ft/sec is £250 thousand, yet the game cartridge equivilent 28g No 7 2.4mm 3%SB 1400ft/sec is £350/thousand.

 

 

[sitsinhedges]

Can't understand why folk use 28gram 20gauge cartridges for clays, we never need above 24gram in any gauge and I prefer 21gram in 20gauge. Especially with a light gun like a Silver Pigeon. 

[jbk]

Thank you @Smokersmith @wymberley & @Cawdor118, my bad, yes it is 1/4 & 1/2, and I'll keep it at that then. Ah ******, was hoping I could partly blame inappropriate choking for my shoddy shooting (which is perhaps unconsciously what's going on with this whole thread for me! 😳🙄, no not really, I need to get more knowledgable on the subject)!

1 hour ago, Stonepark said:

 

It is not just pyschological, but also physical, generally an increase in price will (but not always) achieve the following for any given load i.e. 28g:-

Better quality hull (higher 'brass' and thicker walls reload better but as most cartridges are only fired once, not that important)

More consistant powder (less shot to shot variation)

Better quality wad (felt with over powder card instead of Diana type only)

Higher Antimony percentage in shot (harder shot withstands pressure better resulting in better patterns)

Produced on more modern and more accurate machine.

However, this does not add up to an extra £100 per thousand in most cases, probably £30, the rest being 'marketing'

 

There is also the issue that a No 7.5 (2.4mm) 3%SB 28g clay cartridge doing 1500ft/sec is £250 thousand, yet the game cartridge equivilent 28g No 7 2.4mm 3%SB 1400ft/sec is £350/thousand.

 

 

Thanks @Stonepark for another nice post. Noted and understood and respect for your interest and knowledge in the subject 👍🏼. Do you work in the industry by the way?

[Stonepark]

7 minutes ago, jbk said:

Thank you @Smokersmith @wymberley & @Cawdor118, my bad, yes it is 1/4 & 1/2, and I'll keep it at that then. Ah ******, was hoping I could partly blame inappropriate choking for my shoddy shooting (which is perhaps unconsciously what's going on with this whole thread for me! 😳🙄, no not really, I need to get more knowledgable on the subject)!

Thanks @Stonepark for another nice post. Noted and understood and respect for your interest and knowledge in the subject 👍🏼. Do you work in the industry by the way?

Many thanks.... No, just have a deep interest in the facts and ignore the marketing 'blurb' .

[jbk]

3 hours ago, Cawdor118 said:

Top is 1/4 

Bottom is 1/2 

I generally shoot bottom barrel first, so would also have the chokes the other way around. The further a bird is away, the more choke you need to keep the pattern together on the way to it. That's my theory. 

Noted!! I actually knew that but had been shooting top barrel first, until I read something recently about bottom barrel usually being shot first, due to less muzzle rising on bottom barrel thus better to avoid that for second shot, but d'oh i forgot to swap chokes around, will now do this.

Incidentally have you noticed Beretta's safety catch tendency to flip over to top barrel first a lot of the time? Quite annoying.

3 minutes ago, Stonepark said:

Many thanks.... No, just have a deep interest in the facts and ignore the marketing 'blurb' .

Spot on, kudos 👍🏼

[wymberley]

3 minutes ago, jbk said:

Noted!! I actually knew that but had been shooting top barrel first, until I read something recently about bottom barrel usually being shot first, due to less muzzle rising on bottom barrel thus better to avoid that for second shot, but d'oh i forgot to swap chokes around, will now do this.

Incidentally have you noticed Beretta's safety catch tendency to flip over to top barrel first a lot of the time? Quite annoying.

Spot on, kudos 👍🏼

Do what you want. If you've been shooting top barrel first and have noticed no problem with muzzle flip when going for the bottom barrel - particularly if you stick with the 25g load., then crack on if you've a mind to. If nothing else if the first barrel does the job it's easier to reload.

Should have got one with two triggers.

[jbk]

2 minutes ago, wymberley said:

Do what you want. If you've been shooting top barrel first and have noticed no problem with muzzle flip when going for the bottom barrel - particularly if you stick with the 25g load., then crack on if you've a mind to. If nothing else if the first barrel does the job it's easier to reload.

Should have got one with two triggers.

Aha, excuse for more guns! 👍🏼

Can't wait for my skotkam to arrive, reckon results will be v interesting, likely hilarious too 😉.

[swan40]

try Fiocchi gfl25 fw     25 grams of uk 7 shot with a fibre wad should do all you ask  ( not crows at 60 yards  ha ha) . Also bigger shot sizes it you feel you need them for later in game season.