Renewed threat from Avery

[mick miller]

9 hours ago, udderlyoffroad said:

Defeatist, and very I'm-alright-Jack of you, if I may say so.  What about the generations that come after you?  Your post implies you're just going to lie down and take it.  I don't agree with every decision BASC makes but just moaning about it and sniping from the sidelines is less than useless.

 

Ignore my comments, I'm pretty much resigned to the realisation that the battle for minds, here in the UK, is largely lost already. 

But that's just me. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by mick miller

[rbrowning2]

Don’t think Mick Miller is a defeatist more like a realist, hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.

 

 

[mick miller]

4 hours ago, rbrowning2 said:

Don’t think Mick Miller is a defeatist more like a realist, hoping for the best but preparing for the worst.

Precisely, also slightly disappointed with the efficacy and battle readiness of the self appointed voice of shooting's responses, on a variety of issues. I have resigned myself to the inevitable.

It appears to me that WJ simply examines poorly enforced or worded legislation and inserts a legal lever, then applies pressure. Comparably they are poorly funded and supported, yet their approach yields results.

I do not understand BASC's agenda here. They look likely to roll over on lead, have made a fist of the medicals issue, have yet to achieve anything on 10 year certification and appear to be on the back foot over many of the issues relating to general licences and game shooting. I think they have little practical expertise or interest in anything relating to rifle shooting and, for those reasons, I elected to cancel my long held subscription.

If that changes in the future, if they grow a pair and transform from meek acquiescence to proactive challenges, I would rejoin and support in a heartbeat. However, that seems an extremely unlikely direction at present. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by mick miller

[andrewluke]

On 28/01/2020 at 13:40, udderlyoffroad said:

Defeatist, and very I'm-alright-Jack of you, if I may say so.  What about the generations that come after you?  Your post implies you're just going to lie down and take it.  I don't agree with every decision BASC makes but just moaning about it and sniping from the sidelines is less than useless.

 

what BASC decisions do you agree with?

[panoma1]

53 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Precisely, also slightly disappointed with the efficacy and battle readiness of the self appointed voice of shooting's responses, on a variety of issues. I have resigned myself to the inevitable.

It appears to me that WJ simply examines poorly enforced or worded legislation and applies a legal lever, then applies pressure. Comparably they are poorly funded and supported, yet their approach yields results.

I do not understand BASC's agenda here. They look likely to roll over on lead, have made a fist of the medicals issue, have yet to achieve anything on 10 year certification and appear to be on the back foot over many of the issues relating to general licences and game shooting. I think they have little practical expertise or interest in anything relating to rifle shooting and, for those reasons, I elected to cancel my long held subscription.

If that changes in the future, if they grow a pair and transform from meek acquiescence to proactive challenges, I would rejoin and support in a heartbeat. However, that seems an extremely unlikely direction at present. 

But the WJ/DEFRA GL debacle was down to DEFRA, not the BASC or anyone from the shooting community....DEFRA ****** it up...shooting paid the price for their incompetence!
I’m sure if BASC identified a legal challenge to an anti shooting attack....they would go for it.....surely it’s about choosing when to fight, and fighting only when you have a realistic chance of winning? What’s the point of ******* all your money up the wall, if legal opinion says, you ain’t got a realistic chance of winning?

Remember shooting is not the attacker, WJ are!..........Shooting is trying to defend itself!

Edited January 29, 2020 by panoma1

[David BASC]

Info here from BASC 

https://basc.org.uk/defra-given-warning-as-general-licences-expiry-date-looms/

Yes, we have lawyers on standby to challenge anything WJ release on this issue, but cant do anything until, or indeed if, WJ publish the details of their legal challenge

 

[rbrowning2]

So if they Issue a JR but don’t publish the details you can do nothing? Or am I miss understanding you?

[David BASC]

Yes you misunderstand, we will act regardless of how much they put in the public domain.

[panoma1]

40 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

So if they Issue a JR but don’t publish the details you can do nothing? Or am I miss understanding you?

I don’t think you can just “issue” a JR? I believe you present your case to a judge, and are either given permission or refused permission for JR?....of course shooting will need to know WJ’s grounds for review (in order to decide whether to oppose it)....if their (WJ’s) JR is granted! 

But I reckon it’s more likely BASC will take DEFRA to court, on similar, grounds to WJ’s?

[rbrowning2]

7 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

I don’t think you can just “issue” a JR? I believe you present your case to a judge, and are either given permission or refused permission for JR?....of course shooting will need to know WJ’s grounds for review (in order to decide whether to oppose it)....if their (WJ’s) JR is granted! 

But I reckon it’s more likely BASC will take DEFRA to court, on similar, grounds to WJ’s?

Step one is a pre-action protocol letter to the defendant, if that does not get the desired result you then lodge a JR claim to the administrative courts. 
Judicial review (JR) is the process of challenging the lawfulness of decisions of public authorities, usually local or central government.

 

 

[panoma1]

1 minute ago, rbrowning2 said:

Step one is a pre-action protocol letter to the defendant, if that does not get the desired result you then lodge a JR claim to the administrative courts. 
Judicial review (JR) is the process of challenging the lawfulness of decisions of public authorities, usually local or central government.

 

 

Yes, but you need to identify grounds for a JR application in the first place......and need to persuade the court that your application contains grounds for them to grant a JR.....a pre action letter is just a bluff, if you haven’t already identified grounds for a JR.........and until a decision is made/enacted, you have no grounds for a review!

[rbrowning2]

27 minutes ago, panoma1 said:

Yes, but you need to identify grounds for a JR application in the first place......and need to persuade the court that your application contains grounds for them to grant a JR.....a pre action letter is just a bluff, if you haven’t already identified grounds for a JR.........and until a decision is made/enacted, you have no grounds for a review!

Agree but just don’t get a warm feeling that this identifying grounds has been properly and throughly explored and frequently reviewed as the process changes with time with a decent legal team, but rather we just go on with the same old approach of preying MPs will sort it out for us when as you say most are probably anti shooting.

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by rbrowning2

[David BASC]

BASC will use all its resources to defend shooters rights, what tools we use, when and how will depend on the nature of the threat. I understand fully that many are rightly concerned about this, shooters, farmers, land owners etc. We are not alone, and we will work together.

Let's not get distracted discussing hypothetical solutions, and most importantly let's not argue among ourselves, unity has never been more important. Get behind your chosen shooting organisation(s) and work with them. Attacking organisations or individuals within our precious community will not achieve anything

 

[spurs 14]

3 minutes ago, David BASC said:

BASC will use all its resources to defend shooters rights, what tools we use, when and how will depend on the nature of the threat. I understand fully that many are rightly concerned about this, shooters, farmers, land owners etc. We are not alone, and we will work together.

Let's not get distracted discussing hypothetical solutions, and most importantly let's not argue among ourselves, unity has never been more important. Get behind your chosen shooting organisation(s) and work with them. Attacking organisations or individuals within our precious community will not achieve anything

 

You have to agree with this , shootings best defence is for everyone to stick together , all work and fight together 

[Saltings]

On 29/01/2020 at 18:25, spurs 14 said:

You have to agree with this , shootings best defence is for everyone to stick together , all work and fight together 

 

On 29/01/2020 at 18:20, David BASC said:

BASC will use all its resources to defend shooters rights, what tools we use, when and how will depend on the nature of the threat. I understand fully that many are rightly concerned about this, shooters, farmers, land owners etc. We are not alone, and we will work together.

Let's not get distracted discussing hypothetical solutions, and most importantly let's not argue among ourselves, unity has never been more important. Get behind your chosen shooting organisation(s) and work with them. Attacking organisations or individuals within our precious community will not achieve anything

 

I agree all country sports should support each other including  clay shooting and rifle clubs inc  not to mention fishing  and falconry  hunting   stalking   horse and hound racing    ferreting etc  (to mention a few )         as with all terrorism  organisations      as they do    be it  hands on or behind the scenes legally or not           educate the supply of £       they cannot do anything   without funding     target and educate the money   no more problem   simples

[Remimax]

On 29/01/2020 at 18:25, spurs 14 said:

You have to agree with this , shootings best defence is for everyone to stick together , all work and fight together 

+1

[clay shooter]

no basc does represent  the shooting brigade  those  who are not members do win and gainfrom their efforts 

wild justice have lostthe challeng..ne GL will be tried in september...for intro in january 2021 pigeon shooting over 

crops is to remain as is other vermin.i think thanks to the sec state mr george  ustace  whos family own fruit farm

[andrewluke]

1 hour ago, clay shooter said:

no basc does represent  the shooting brigade  those  who are not members do win and gainfrom their efforts 

wild justice have lostthe challeng..ne GL will be tried in september...for intro in january 2021 pigeon shooting over 

crops is to remain as is other vermin.i think thanks to the sec state mr george  ustace  whos family own fruit farm

and can lose from their efforts

[clangerman]

15 hours ago, andrewluke said:

and can lose from their efforts

spot on me and you should be grateful this so called wonderful basc has called for a lead ban what peasants how dare we question the mighty basc calling for us to use steel sometimes it’s like living in a soap opera mate the denial is unreal 

[panoma1]

2 minutes ago, clangerman said:

spot on me and you should be grateful this so called wonderful basc has called for a lead ban what peasants how dare we question the mighty basc calling for us to use steel sometimes it’s like living in a soap opera mate the denial is unreal 

As individuals we are irrelevant, no one will listen to us.....as a group,  the more people in that group the more chance we will be listened to!

[andrewluke]

3 minutes ago, clangerman said:

spot on me and you should be grateful this so called wonderful basc has called for a lead ban what peasants how dare we question the mighty basc calling for us to use steel sometimes it’s like living in a soap opera mate the denial is unreal 

it's not only the lead fiasco that i'm ****** off about with Basc,over the years i asked for help on numerous occassions and BASC have virtually said "just do as you are told"!,that's not what i pay my BASC subs for.

[clangerman]

1 minute ago, panoma1 said:

As individuals we are irrelevant, no one will listen to us.....as a group,  the more people in that group the more chance we will be listened to!

the day basc even listens to what shooters want let alone does it is the day i send them a cheque 

1 minute ago, andrewluke said:

it's not only the lead fiasco that i'm ****** off about with Basc,over the years i asked for help on numerous occassions and BASC have virtually said "just do as you are told"!,that's not what i pay my BASC subs for.

snap!  do as your told is exactly the rubbish basc told me which caused all my problems 

[clay shooter]

then dont subscribe its your choice i know for a fact that basc has had vital input into the recent talks with george ustace the sec of state defra and all parties involved..over the past months Also within the meeting might i say a member. With a good friend of mine and fellow team pub quiz partner and MP.

So before down grading the  basc wait till September when the trial GLs come into effective trial you will see and be told basc involvement..GLs will be mostly same rules ....  for the use of woodie destruction ... Over farm/fruit crops

And if you dont like what he.....and they have done....... Leave im sure we can do without you.. But thats free speach and your right.

[dodgy dave]

is that the answer  ?   if you dont like it you know what to do     

[andrewluke]

11 hours ago, clay shooter said:

then dont subscribe its your choice i know for a fact that basc has had vital input into the recent talks with george ustace the sec of state defra and all parties involved..over the past months Also within the meeting might i say a member. With a good friend of mine and fellow team pub quiz partner and MP.

So before down grading the  basc wait till September when the trial GLs come into effective trial you will see and be told basc involvement..GLs will be mostly same rules ....  for the use of woodie destruction ... Over farm/fruit crops

And if you dont like what he.....and they have done....... Leave im sure we can do without you.. But thats free speach and your right.

i had to join because my wildfowling club is affilliated to BASC,so BASC had me over a barrel!

just to put a smile on you face i will not be rejoining basc as i can do without basc