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The demise of lead shot and small bore shot guns


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17 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

Mick You need to wait there is more to come out of this field. Have  patience patience is a virtue.

Chokes are no problem, its wads. But its early days somats will crop up.

I'm genuinely not terribly concerned for guns with this announcement, I feel that there are some alternatives for some guns already. In time that will be most alternatives for most guns (not all though). I also think a two-step process would have been a more sensible transition, perhaps lead first followed by single use plastic or vice versa.

My real concern is focused on rifles, as I strongly believe that this announcement will become a stick to beat rifle shooters with. Despite some here claiming that there is, there is currently no non-lead monolithic in 100gr loads that will stabilise in a 6mm calibre, due to the longer length of the projectile. That's coming from someone who has spent three years developing non-toxic loads, rather than some misinformed dolt in Suffolk. For vermin shooters the price of cartridges in NT is more than double a jacketed equivalent, again, a longer projectile affects load depth, which effects powder charge, which affects accuracy etc.

Generally, a move to NT copper monolithics in rifles means a lighter projectile for any given caliber to compensate. Yes, that means you can load faster loads, but don't try and tell me that across the spectrum there is no impact. That's just ********. There is, both in terms of cost and performance. As I said, the market place will be awash with worthless 243's if this is rolled out to rifles, 6.5mm will become the new minimum for deer. For vermin shooters, unless the price drops, it will make rabbit shooting unviable, unless you're simply shooting a couple for the pot.

Edited by mick miller
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8 minutes ago, mick miller said:

I'm genuinely not terribly concerned for guns with this announcement, I feel that there are some alternatives for some guns already. In time that will be most alternatives for most guns (not all though). I also think a two-step process would have been a more sensible transition, perhaps lead first followed by single use plastic or vice versa.

My real concern is focused on rifles, as I strongly believe that this announcement will become a stick to beat rifle shooters with. Despite some here claiming that there is, there is currently no non-lead monolithic in 100gr loads that will stabilise in a 6mm calibre, due to the longer length of the projectile. That's coming from someone who has spent three years developing non-toxic loads, rather than some misinformed dolt in Suffolk. For vermin shooters the price of cartridges in NT is more than double a jacketed equivalent, again, a longer projectile affects load depth, which effects powder charge, which affects accuracy etc.

Generally, a move to NT copper monolithics in rifles means a lighter projectile for any given caliber to compensate. Yes, that means you can load faster loads, but don't try and tell me that across the spectrum there is no impact. That's just ********. There is, both in terms of cost and performance. As I said, the market place will be awash with worthless 243's if this is rolled out to rifles, 6.5mm will become the new minimum for deer. For vermin shooters, unless the price drops, it will make rabbit shooting unviable, unless you're simply shooting a couple for the pot.

Again we do not know the full details yet. But the plaswad thing is a pain it has to be said at this very moment in time.  Shot?  Steel will do it and if you must use something denser.   When we were kids my mother used to have sewing machine, it had cotton on like a hard "VERY HARD" card tube , if they made wads out of that stuff as tough as that it would do this job. 

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On 02/03/2020 at 14:33, mick miller said:

I'm genuinely not terribly concerned for guns with this announcement, I feel that there are some alternatives for some guns already. In time that will be most alternatives for most guns (not all though). I also think a two-step process would have been a more sensible transition, perhaps lead first followed by single use plastic or vice versa.

My real concern is focused on rifles, as I strongly believe that this announcement will become a stick to beat rifle shooters with. Despite some here claiming that there is, there is currently no non-lead monolithic in 100gr loads that will stabilise in a 6mm calibre, due to the longer length of the projectile. That's coming from someone who has spent three years developing non-toxic loads, rather than some misinformed dolt in Suffolk. For vermin shooters the price of cartridges in NT is more than double a jacketed equivalent, again, a longer projectile affects load depth, which effects powder charge, which affects accuracy etc.

Generally, a move to NT copper monolithics in rifles means a lighter projectile for any given caliber to compensate. Yes, that means you can load faster loads, but don't try and tell me that across the spectrum there is no impact. That's just ********. There is, both in terms of cost and performance. As I said, the market place will be awash with worthless 243's if this is rolled out to rifles, 6.5mm will become the new minimum for deer. For vermin shooters, unless the price drops, it will make rabbit shooting unviable, unless you're simply shooting a couple for the pot.

I have been shooting deer with monolithic bullets for the last six years. They perform just as well as lead in terms of ballistics and terminal effect There is no impact in terms of performance whatsoever. This is true from my own experience in .308, .270 and .223 

It's only Scotland where the 100gr .243 problem arises. South of the border there are plenty of viable non-lead options for the smaller calibre and if there is a will there to ban lead bullets in Scotland either the government will have to amend legislation to accommodate 6mm bullets, or you'll have to change calibre. **** happens. Stop ******* and moaning. 

What the **** are you talking about rabbit shooting will be unviable?? ********. There are already non lead loads for .22 rimfire with more under development. The .22 centerfires are well catered for in non-lead. Cost is pretty much comparable across the board you just have to actually put some effort in and look rather than whine on the internet about how bad it's going to be when you can't use lead any more.  

Edited by ClemFandango
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On 02/03/2020 at 14:49, lancer425 said:

Again we do not know the full details yet. But the plaswad thing is a pain it has to be said at this very moment in time.  Shot?  Steel will do it and if you must use something denser.   When we were kids my mother used to have sewing machine, it had cotton on like a hard "VERY HARD" card tube , if they made wads out of that stuff as tough as that it would do this job. 

You could try the manufacturers of the cardboard tubes for fireworks and see if they have anything 😉

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On 02/03/2020 at 14:33, mick miller said:

I'm genuinely not terribly concerned for guns with this announcement, I feel that there are some alternatives for some guns already. In time that will be most alternatives for most guns (not all though). I also think a two-step process would have been a more sensible transition, perhaps lead first followed by single use plastic or vice versa.

My real concern is focused on rifles, as I strongly believe that this announcement will become a stick to beat rifle shooters with. Despite some here claiming that there is, there is currently no non-lead monolithic in 100gr loads that will stabilise in a 6mm calibre, due to the longer length of the projectile. That's coming from someone who has spent three years developing non-toxic loads, rather than some misinformed dolt in Suffolk. For vermin shooters the price of cartridges in NT is more than double a jacketed equivalent, again, a longer projectile affects load depth, which effects powder charge, which affects accuracy etc.

Generally, a move to NT copper monolithics in rifles means a lighter projectile for any given caliber to compensate. Yes, that means you can load faster loads, but don't try and tell me that across the spectrum there is no impact. That's just ********. There is, both in terms of cost and performance. As I said, the market place will be awash with worthless 243's if this is rolled out to rifles, 6.5mm will become the new minimum for deer. For vermin shooters, unless the price drops, it will make rabbit shooting unviable, unless you're simply shooting a couple for the pot.

Federal Premium powershok 85gr copper works fine in my .243 and will be fine for the 3 smaller species of deer.

I completely agree though about moving up to 6.5 in order to get a 100gr+ non-lead bullet to stabilise and this becoming the normal minimum for the 3 larger species. 

What I am concerned about is .410 ammo I use a lot for ratting and for humane dispatch at the moment and it looks like I will have to learn to re-load. There does not seem to be much .410 re-loading equipment around but hopefully this will change very soon.

I also do not fancy using steel shot in a barn much

Edited by 243deer
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2 hours ago, ClemFandango said:

I have been shooting deer with monolithic bullets for the last six years. They perform just as well as lead in terms of ballistics and terminal effect There is no impact in terms of performance whatsoever. This is true from my own experience in .308, .270 and .223 

It's only Scotland where the 100gr .243 problem arises. South of the border there are plenty of viable non-lead options for the smaller calibre and if there is a will there to ban lead bullets in Scotland either the government will have to amend legislation to accommodate 6mm bullets, or you'll have to change calibre. **** happens. Stop ******* and moaning. 

What the **** are you talking about rabbit shooting will be unviable?? ********. There are already non lead loads for .22 rimfire with more under development. The .22 centerfires are well catered for in non-lead. Cost is pretty much comparable across the board you just have to actually put some effort in and look rather than whine on the internet about how bad it's going to be when you can't use lead any more.  

You seem to have all the answers, could you share the links for affordable NTX 22 rimfire cartridges and 17cal bullets, because as yet, I cannot find any (for a guide I pay £22 per 100 17cal bullets, so something around that mark would be perfect). Thanks in advance.

Edited by mick miller
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6 hours ago, Donkey said:

Last summer jocker cartridges launched a steel load in a card cup

i believe it was a 32g load

0DA75878-E10A-47DB-A1C9-4ADB7EFAC14C.jpeg

They look ideal, i ran those jockerLA lead a year or so ago i have a box or two still good cartridge and economically priced, wonder where they getting the wads from like that. jobs done right there.

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1 hour ago, lancer425 said:

They look ideal, i ran those jockerLA lead a year or so ago i have a box or two still good cartridge and economically priced, wonder where they getting the wads from like that. jobs done right there.

Yes but according to the manufacturers, the only wad that works with steel is plastic and so although the Jockers tick the boxes on the eco friendly front, you might find you can’t hit a thing with them.

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2 hours ago, BinaryB said:

Yes but according to the manufacturers, the only wad that works with steel is plastic and so although the Jockers tick the boxes on the eco friendly front, you might find you can’t hit a thing with them.

Any further info on thes mate?  As said above . i am planning on more or less doing this too, they look to be ideal. Appreciate any more info you can provide.

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9 hours ago, mick miller said:

You seem to have all the answers, could you share the links for affordable NTX 22 rimfire cartridges and 17cal bullets, because as yet, I cannot find any (for a guide I pay £22 per 100 17cal bullets, so something around that mark would be perfect). Thanks in advance.

Get off your **** and them yourself. They are out there. 

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2 hours ago, ClemFandango said:

Get off your **** and them yourself. They are out there. 

In fantasyland... what a pleasant fellow you are. Lehigh Defense, 17 cal.. per 100 they work out at £56,80 posted, from Germany. So, as I said, over two and a half times the price of a jacketed lead bullet. Okay if you're shooting a few deer a year, **** all use for fox or vermin.

Edited by mick miller
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1 minute ago, mick miller said:

In fantasyland... what a pleasant fellow you are.

Right Mick what is your problem with these bullets exactly. ?

Where does it say in any laws we can not keep using lead in bullets,?

and where exactly in the Voluntary ban are bullets mentioned?

Has phasing out lead ever been tabled here yet?

If so what is wrong with barnes ?
 

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Thankfully we're not there, yet.

Problem with which bullets? Copper monoliths in 22lr and 17? Well, in 22lr all I can find are supersonics (they're not cheap and defeat the purpose of a 22lr) and in 17 all I can find is LeHigh Defense (stupidly expensive). So, whilst we're not there yet it's pretty inevitable we will be soon enough (mission creep and unintended consequences, things BASC excel at) and the options appear, at best, slim. 

UK market is tiny. No US manufacturer is going to go all out to produce a non toxic in small calibers, which renders them pretty useless for what they were purchased for. Hornady did do a 15.5gr NTX but discontinued the bullet and it's only available as an assembled cartridge in 17 rimfire, it's also a bit wee for 17 hornet, 17 rem.

Barnes? Can't find anything that small.

Copper for 243? Well, currently I can shoot a Red with it if I want, if further restrictions come in as a result of this the only deer I can shoot are ones I can fit into a shopping bag.

We're not there, yet.

[It is a pretty simple thought process to follow. Orgs say lead shot is bad, in fact they have explicitly stated now that lead, in any amount is bad. Policy makers go 'oh, lead shot is bad, but that's okay, it;s being phased out for shotguns but... what about rifles? They use lead and lead is bad. Right, to fix this all rifles must not use lead!'. It's now going to be a tad hard for the orgs to argue that the opposite is true for rifles now, isn't it? Or is it only bad when you're releasing tonnes of the stuff, or when it's small bit of lead, like lead fragments - see why a lot of us are now a little miffed to put it mildly?]

Edited by mick miller
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14 minutes ago, lancer425 said:

 

Where does it say in any laws we can not keep using lead in bullets,?


 

Reading basc Facebook comments those congratulating basc for the voluntary ban are doing so because they know the government will soon ban lead, in which case that ban will include lead bullets and the shooting organisations have just made that very easy.
we won’t get chance to cherry pick which lead ammunition we can and cannot keep lead for when we have handed any legal ban to them on a plate.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

Reading basc Facebook comments those congratulating basc for the voluntary ban are doing so because they know the government will soon ban lead, in which case that ban will include lead bullets and the shooting organisations have just made that very easy.
we won’t get chance to cherry pick which lead ammunition we can and cannot keep lead for when we have handed any legal ban to them on a plate.

See, someone else 'gets it'. It's really not rocket surgery, or even brain science. Don't even get me started on vintage rifles THAT CAN ONLY SHOOT CAST LEAD. But that's all right, Clem can shoot deer with his 308 blah, blah so it's all covered. Pull the ladder up.

Edited by mick miller
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