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The demise of lead shot and small bore shot guns


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8 minutes ago, rbrowning2 said:

This is WJ view on it, the consensus is shooting will survive changing to steel shot and so it would survive if game shooting was significantly reduced.

The scale of gamebird releases is a particularly UK issue. When measured in spring (standard practice for bird populations) the breeding populations of Pheasant in the UK (ie those birds which have survived the shooting season, and the winter to breed in the spring before further massive releases in the summer) comprise about a half of the whole European population. Other countries have Pheasant shooting but they do not release such vast numbers of farmed birds into the countryside a few weeks before the shooting season as we do in the UK. The Netherlands banned almost all gamebird and game shooting in 2002 on a mixture of animal welfare and conservation grounds.


 

And you believe your comment at the head of this quote do you, based on what Avery has said?  Incredible!

Right, this is my last attempt because you just really don't seem to understand how any of this works. You said: 'I did say big commercial shoots not small ones.' 

Firstly, what do YOU call big commercial shoots, and what do YOU call small commercial shoots? Be specific then we know what we're dealing with. You must have a figure in mind because you made the statement. Put a number on it. 

This is how it works: There is no difference except for numbers released, between a small commercial shoot and a big commercial shoot. Both are doing it as a business ( hence the term 'commercial' ) and need to make a profit if they are to survive. Both shoots, irrespective of size, release non indigenous birds into our native habitat and control indigenous vermin and predator species detrimental to the survival of their birds, and both shoots lease days to guns willing to pay to shoot those birds for sport. Extreme bird shoots are nevertheless still commercial shoots, whether big or small, and occasional extreme birds can be shot on most shoots at one time or another. 

On my local BIG commercial shoot, which forked out over 20 grand for state of the art chillers in their game larder, they sell numerous days ( consisting of bags anywhere between 200 and 500 ) to people who want to pay large amounts of cash to shoot challenging ( there are some extreme birds, by my standards anyhow, but they aren't the norm ) birds for sport. There is one head keeper and two under keepers, all with families to support. 

Now then, there are also both big and small non commercial shoots, dependant on ones perspective of big or small. My nephew is a gun in one which releases 3000 pheasant, plus ducks and partridge, but I don't have figures for those. They invite friends and don't sell any days. They release those 3000 non indigenous birds into the local habitat and control indigenous vermin and predators detrimental to the survival of those birds. There are some medium birds and extreme birds along with the rest. They shoot them for sport. 

Three miles away an ex copper has a shoot on which they release 250 ex layers. They release those non indigenous birds ( are you seeing a trend yet? ) into our local habitat and control indigenous vermin and predators detrimental to the survival of those birds. The numbers of maggies trapped and killed last season was staggering. He invites friends and relatives to shoot these birds for sport. 

Around six miles away our syndicate buys and releases 350 non indigenous pheasant into the local habitat and our keeper controls indigenous vermin and predators detrimental to the survival of those birds. There are fourteen of us and we shoot what we can between us, for sport. 

On our rough shoot seven miles away we buy 125 ex layers and release those non indigenous birds into the local habitat and now and then as time allows, we control indigenous vermin and predators detrimental to the survival of those birds. We shoot them all for sport, and once had a return of over 100% ! This is due to the fact we're surrounded by numerous shoots, all releasing non indigenous birds into the local habitat, controlling indigenous vermin and predators detrimental to the survival of those birds, so they can shoot them for sport. 

I have made a note of all the syndicates within a twelve mile radius of my home, of all sizes, both commercial and non, including rough shoots which release birds, and there are twenty six. I'm sure I could think of more if i really tried. That's 26 shoots, all releasing non indigenous birds on a scale of between 125 and who knows what, and controlling indigenous vermin and predators detrimental to the survival of those birds....for sport. 

No one NEEDS to shoot any of these birds, but each and every one of these people, on all the different shoots I've mentioned above, big, small and indifferent, shoots them for sport.

Forget about lead, you actually believe Avery, never mind WJ, Packham and all the others, will be fine with this if we do away with big commercial shoots do you? 

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Thank you for that very interesting the question that has yet to be properly answered is why now for the steel shot and non biodegradable wads?
To answer your last sentence no I do not think they would be fine with it, as they see game shooting as the cause of other issue as I mentioned previously.   

further reading for you

https://whoownsengland.org/2019/04/02/the-english-shooting-estates-that-rear-20-million-pheasants-a-year/

 

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1 hour ago, rbrowning2 said:

Thank you for that very interesting the question that has yet to be properly answered is why now for the steel shot and non biodegradable wads?
To answer your last sentence no I do not think they would be fine with it, as they see game shooting as the cause of other issue as I mentioned previously.   

further reading for you

https://whoownsengland.org/2019/04/02/the-english-shooting-estates-that-rear-20-million-pheasants-a-year/

 

Ok, I’ll answer your questions although you never seem capable of answering mine. 
Why now? Possibly because our shooting organisations have been given an ultimatum? Jump now, before you’re pushed?

I have no idea what point it is you’re trying to make with the contents of your link, as interesting as it is. I would guess the numbers of released birds are much higher if it is only looking at those reared and released on ‘estates’. It doesn’t appear to include those released on what must consist of thousands of non commercial shoots not on estates throughout the country. 

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1 hour ago, Scully said:

Ok, I’ll answer your questions although you never seem capable of answering mine. 
Why now? Possibly because our shooting organisations have been given an ultimatum? Jump now, before you’re pushed?

I have no idea what point it is you’re trying to make with the contents of your link, as interesting as it is. I would guess the numbers of released birds are much higher if it is only looking at those reared and released on ‘estates’. It doesn’t appear to include those released on what must consist of thousands of non commercial shoots not on estates throughout the country. 

Having only shot game as a member of a small diy shoot I am not qualified to answer your question re how many differentiate between a big or small commercial shoot.
we only released 600 birds. Was a member for five years, feeding, watering the birds keeping the electric fence battery charged, maintaining rides then due to change in family circumstances decided to stop.

No evidence to suggest shooting organisations have been given an ultimatum, jump now, before you’re pushed.

some honesty from them on why now would not go amiss.

point of the link was to show the growth in the commercial shooting which if basc is correct and 70 percent of the birds shot on these shoots enters the food chain, which is now demanding that the meat is lead free, looks to be the only current reason for jumping to non toxic shot and biodegradable wads, how long can the growth in numbers of birds released continue for without consequence.
was it wise to do such a major u turn at this time to support the commercial shoots, guess only time will tell, feel like we are being used may be even abused to provide that support.

 


 

 

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Avery cherry picking the Netherlands is choice. The Dutch are just ever so slightly more rabidly anti shooting than the British are. They would rather gas geese and incinerate the carcasses, than have anyone shoot and then eat them. Totally bonkers. 

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14 minutes ago, mick miller said:

Avery cherry picking the Netherlands is choice. The Dutch are just ever so slightly more rabidly anti shooting than the British are. They would rather gas geese and incinerate the carcasses, than have anyone shoot and then eat them. Totally bonkers. 

The Dutch Model is clearly where WJ would have us be.  But i do feel shooters are giving too much credence to WJ Avery packham etc.

 I am not saying we do not need to watch what they are doing, they are dangerous and have proved that with the GLs this time this last year. But they did get lucky there, Weakest link blow it open with a Strident lawyer all crowd funded, they got  the right man in the right place at the right time. The jelly that is Marian sprain, and we ended up in a situation you could not make up in a funny story.

 We need to watch monitor and be aware, give them no more credence than that with respect to their influence on our way of life.

 They are struggling to stay in the spotlight, given the business in the country right now, but guess what? Packham  gets yet another Dead thing/  a badger on his  gate i see  on tv  the other day. All convenient and very relevant .  Not saying he is involved directly, but i think it will prove to be an  anti or group of antis, giving him a publicity boost with these  actions.

We need to treat WJ with the contempt it deserves, just focus on our own role in the world, stop giving them any credence whatsoever.

  .

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

I Have just finished trying.  25. 20 bore steel reloads.  3 inch load based very loosely on a well known, LIL GUN load that’s been doing the rounds a few years now.  Chedite case76mm  cx2000 primer and 3* grain of lil gun. op card 20ga cork "3mm" then a 20ga Nitro card, and a cut down nitro card i stamped out with a hollow punch"Slightly too small but i added a card inside the tube to help compensate but need slightly bigger punch" glue those together like the 12s. then card wrapper i again glued and put into a 20ga tubeand fed it into the case followed by the card i just mentioned.

load with 15/16 oz of copper plated 3 steel. and RTO Finnish in the drill.

Original load was plaswad and 1oz it tests at 12400PSI and around the 1460/ 1480FPS.

 I ran 5 over a chrono Checked it with eley ten x  out my bruno same as i always do, speeds at 3 yards.

1. 1428FPS

2. 1454fps

3. ______did not register

4. 1410fps

5. 1447fps.

Slower i expected that fibre. but lighter shot charge helped a little. I am guessing its lower pressure  than the original 1oz load with the plaswad.

did not pattern it properly just put one into a paper table cloth on the end of a round bale. looked even and if anything centrally dense at 40 yards through Carlson choke. in .635 bore hatsan. I marked off first shot hit it again it looked similar with again looking kind of central dense. Quite surprised for the RTO which can effect patterns.

Did not notice an pin holing or shreading on the card wrapper, i am thinking the wraps from this might do the job.

I killed a rabbit at about 25 yards, but i did not get chance for any longer shots but i think its looking tight enough for over 35 yards from what i saw on the two shots .  Thinking 4sc next time, i think it will be an ideal pigeon / crow load. But copper plated shot at £19.50 for 5kgs is not my usual Indi cast at £40 + vat for 28kgs. so something has got to give.  Thinking of trying SP2 to try and get the price down, but wont make Lil guns speed i am prety sure of that. .

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 06/03/2020 at 01:16, lancer425 said:

The Dutch Model is clearly where WJ would have us be.  But i do feel shooters are giving too much credence to WJ Avery packham etc.

 I am not saying we do not need to watch what they are doing, they are dangerous and have proved that with the GLs this time this last year. But they did get lucky there, Weakest link blow it open with a Strident lawyer all crowd funded, they got  the right man in the right place at the right time. The jelly that is Marian sprain, and we ended up in a situation you could not make up in a funny story.

 We need to watch monitor and be aware, give them no more credence than that with respect to their influence on our way of life.

 They are struggling to stay in the spotlight, given the business in the country right now, but guess what? Packham  gets yet another Dead thing/  a badger on his  gate i see  on tv  the other day. All convenient and very relevant .  Not saying he is involved directly, but i think it will prove to be an  anti or group of antis, giving him a publicity boost with these  actions.

We need to treat WJ with the contempt it deserves, just focus on our own role in the world, stop giving them any credence whatsoever.

  .

 

 

Good post👍

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  • 5 weeks later...

As we all know there are some real BASC **** lickers on this forum, they know who they are, don't be swayed by their bias opinions, make your own mind up about Basc whether they truly represent the fieldsports community or accept members money to fuel their own ideologies whist on a nice wage and pension, having been betrayed once over the  unproven reasons for the ban on lead in wildfowling, 20 years on we find another very similar scenario, No "judas john Swift " this time as he heads up the "LAG" !!!!!! but like minded Swift disciples, if you belong to one of these traitorous organisations to receive insurance cover whilst participating in your chosen past time, there are two options available, C3 country cover insurance, and the Scottish Gamekeepers Association who vigorously oppose the lead ban voluntary or not, and both Half the fees of the organisations that amazingly amalgamated on this latest ban yet could not on the General Licence fiasco months earlier, stay safe and happy hunting !!!! 

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On 16/05/2020 at 20:05, d17 len said:

As we all know there are some real BASC **** lickers on this forum, they know who they are, don't be swayed by their bias opinions, make your own mind up about Basc whether they truly represent the fieldsports community or accept members money to fuel their own ideologies whist on a nice wage and pension, having been betrayed once over the  unproven reasons for the ban on lead in wildfowling, 20 years on we find another very similar scenario, No "judas john Swift " this time as he heads up the "LAG" !!!!!! but like minded Swift disciples, if you belong to one of these traitorous organisations to receive insurance cover whilst participating in your chosen past time, there are two options available, C3 country cover insurance, and the Scottish Gamekeepers Association who vigorously oppose the lead ban voluntary or not, and both Half the fees of the organisations that amazingly amalgamated on this latest ban yet could not on the General Licence fiasco months earlier, stay safe and happy hunting !!!! 

Well said that man.

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On 16/05/2020 at 20:05, d17 len said:

As we all know there are some real BASC **** lickers on this forum, they know who they are, don't be swayed by their bias opinions, make your own mind up about Basc whether they truly represent the fieldsports community or accept members money to fuel their own ideologies whist on a nice wage and pension, having been betrayed once over the  unproven reasons for the ban on lead in wildfowling, 20 years on we find another very similar scenario, No "judas john Swift " this time as he heads up the "LAG" !!!!!! but like minded Swift disciples, if you belong to one of these traitorous organisations to receive insurance cover whilst participating in your chosen past time, there are two options available, C3 country cover insurance, and the Scottish Gamekeepers Association who vigorously oppose the lead ban voluntary or not, and both Half the fees of the organisations that amazingly amalgamated on this latest ban yet could not on the General Licence fiasco months earlier, stay safe and happy hunting !!!! 

  You do not liker BASC. We !I" got that. :lol:

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On 16/05/2020 at 20:05, d17 len said:

As we all know there are some real BASC **** lickers on this forum, they know who they are, don't be swayed by their bias opinions, make your own mind up about Basc whether they truly represent the fieldsports community or accept members money to fuel their own ideologies whist on a nice wage and pension, having been betrayed once over the  unproven reasons for the ban on lead in wildfowling, 20 years on we find another very similar scenario, No "judas john Swift " this time as he heads up the "LAG" !!!!!! but like minded Swift disciples, if you belong to one of these traitorous organisations to receive insurance cover whilst participating in your chosen past time, there are two options available, C3 country cover insurance, and the Scottish Gamekeepers Association who vigorously oppose the lead ban voluntary or not, and both Half the fees of the organisations that amazingly amalgamated on this latest ban yet could not on the General Licence fiasco months earlier, stay safe and happy hunting !!!! 

you said what  was thinking,brave man:good:

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